2019 Offseason Trade Rumors & Free Agency Thread

[Mox]

26 minutes ago, resilient part 2 said:

First off there are 2 wrongs with this statement.

One is assuming that Tatum won't be able to create for others. at 19 and 20 years old and being asked to shoot and score on a team FULL of stars/want to be stars.

Second KD, AD, KL and PG are all top 10 players who AREN"T high level creators for OTHERS. 

No, I was correct on both.

1) He averages 2 assists/game. He has shown zero ability to do it now and he didn't in college. Players don't develop the ability to create for others at a high level. It's there or it isn't by year 3 (unless you're Kevin Durant). If he doesn't make a jump next year he'll never have it. I'm not counting on it.

2) Anthony Davis is a big. I mentioned Kawhi. He's the exception. Kevin Durant has 7 consecutive seasons over 4 assists/game and nearly hit 6/game this year. He's quite good. Paul George has 1 top season under his belt and he did so the way Kawhi did, by being an elite player on both ends of the court. He's still averaged 4 assists/game 3 times in his career though including this year.

Tell me which of these things you expect to see from Jayson Tatum:

1. He becomes a great creator for others.

2. He becomes elite both offensively and defensively

3. He grows 3 inches and becomes a big.

I don't see any of them happening. Especially after a serious regression in year 2. You need to move on with your "analysts think he has top 10 potential" stuff too. That talk has completely died down this year.

Edited May 20, 2019 by Bullet Club

[GSUeagles14]

1 hour ago, Bullet Club said:

No, I was correct on both.

1) He averages 2 assists/game. He has shown zero ability to do it now and he didn't in college. Players don't develop the ability to create for others at a high level. It's there or it isn't by year 3 (unless you're Kevin Durant). If he doesn't make a jump next year he'll never have it. I'm not counting on it.

2) Anthony Davis is a big. I mentioned Kawhi. He's the exception. Kevin Durant has 7 consecutive seasons over 4 assists/game and nearly hit 6/game this year. He's quite good. Paul George has 1 top season under his belt and he did so the way Kawhi did, by being an elite player on both ends of the court. He's still averaged 4 assists/game 3 times in his career though including this year.

Tell me which of these things you expect to see from Jayson Tatum:

1. He becomes a great creator for others.

2. He becomes elite both offensively and defensively

3. He grows 3 inches and becomes a big.

I don't see any of them happening. Especially after a serious regression in year 2. You need to move on with your "analysts think he has top 10 potential" stuff too. That talk has completely died down this year.

this argument is so bad i cant figure out if its trolling or not. for one youre not going to have tons of assists unless youre ball dominant, so its not even a hreat argument to begin with as its slabted to a certain type of player.

 

secondly, youre already taking an extremely small sample size and then removing players from it. kd didnt have over 3 assists pg until like his 5th year, kawhi doesnt have great assists #, george doesnt either. wierd that tatum most resambles those guys...

hes a wing, who already has showm excellent defensive ability and he can score. capping him after a down 2nd year is stupid.

[Mox]

5 minutes ago, GSUeagles14 said:

this argument is so bad i cant figure out if its trolling or not. for one youre not going to have tons of assists unless youre ball dominant, so its not even a hreat argument to begin with as its slabted to a certain type of player.

 

secondly, youre already taking an extremely small sample size and then removing players from it. kd didnt have over 3 assists pg until like his 5th year, kawhi doesnt have great assists #, george doesnt either. wierd that tatum most resambles those guys...

hes a wing, who already has showm excellent defensive ability and he can score. capping him after a down 2nd year is stupid.

I don't think you understand the concept of the exception is not the rule. Odds are not in Jayson Tatum's favor of becoming a top 10 player.

[GSUeagles14]

10 minutes ago, Bullet Club said:

I don't think you understand the concept of the exception is not the rule. Odds are not in Jayson Tatum's favor of becoming a top 10 player.

i dont think you understand much at all in this. to simplfy for arguments sake, if theres three types of players ( post guys, ball handlers and wings)  in the nba, youve basically excused all the wings that are top 10ish players for not having high assist #s but then say tatum... a wing, wont be top 10 because he doesnt have high assist #s. i mean, you just gotta do better.

[Mox]

6 minutes ago, GSUeagles14 said:

i dont think you understand much at all in this. to simplfy for arguments sake, if theres three types of players ( post guys, ball handlers and wings)  in the nba, youve basically excused all the wings that are top 10ish players for not having high assist #s but then say tatum... a wing, wont be top 10 because he doesnt have high assist #s. i mean, you just gotta do better.

It holds true. Wings who can't create for others typically don't become top 10 players. That's the way it is. If you had an argument to make in favor of Tatum you'd make it instead of trying to pick mine apart. Even if I was to take your nitpick on assist numbers seriously here is what we are left with:

Wings who can't create for others typically don't become top 10 players unless they are arguably greatest scorer ever, a historically great two way player, or the best defensive wing in the NBA in 2019. Better?

Edited May 20, 2019 by Bullet Club

[GSUeagles14]

9 minutes ago, Bullet Club said:

It holds true. Wings who can't create for others typically don't become top 10 players. That's the way it is. If you had an argument to make in favor of Tatum you'd make it instead of trying to pick mine apart. Even if I was to take your nitpick on assist numbers seriously here is what we are left with:

Wings who can't create for others typically don't become top 10 players unless they are arguably greatest scorer ever, a historically great two way player, or the best defensive wing in the NBA in 2019. Better?

No nba player typically becomes top 10 for one. So that argument makes no sense. Furthermore, if you dont like your arguments getting picked apart make better ones. 

 

i dont know if kahwi is historically great, youre really playing that up but he is great on both sides of the ball. Tatum has shown the promise to be the same. Hes also shown the promise to be the best defensive player as well, hes already a top 10-12 perimeter defender. I will give you that he wont be KD, you knocked that one out of the park.

[Mox]

4 minutes ago, GSUeagles14 said:

No nba player typically becomes top 10 for one. So that argument makes no sense. Furthermore, if you dont like your arguments getting picked apart make better ones. 

 

i dont know if kahwi is historically great, youre really playing that up but he is great on both sides of the ball. Tatum has shown the promise to be the same. Hes also shown the promise to be the best defensive player as well, hes already a top 10-12 perimeter defender. I will give you that he wont be KD, you knocked that one out of the park.

So you're saying my argument is bad but you believe Tatum has shown the two way promise to be Kawhi Leonard and is already a top 12 wing defender. GTFOH. Let me know when you have any evidence to back up that nonsense.

Edited May 20, 2019 by Bullet Club

[amac]

21 minutes ago, Bullet Club said:

It holds true. Wings who can't create for others typically don't become top 10 players. That's the way it is. If you had an argument to make in favor of Tatum you'd make it instead of trying to pick mine apart. Even if I was to take your nitpick on assist numbers seriously here is what we are left with:

Wings who can't create for others typically don't become top 10 players unless they are arguably greatest scorer ever, a historically great two way player, or the best defensive wing in the NBA in 2019. Better?

It's not out of the realm of possibilities for him to get better at that aspect though, or to become a really good defender and have a Klay Thompson sort of value. It's too early to define his ceiling.  both sides of this long-standing argument on here go too far imo

Edited May 20, 2019 by amac

[CWood21]

3 hours ago, MookieMonstah said:

Its not a load of crap. I, along with the majority of people, don't think Ingram has star value. If you don't think Tatum does either thats fine. I don't really care because if the Celtics want AD, we will get him and you can continue pumping up Ingram for trades. 

It's a load of crap when it's not supported by anything else.  Your entire argument is that you think he's a role player, and you've done NOTHING to support that.  Meanwhile, you're over here gushing praises over Tatum based on a 19 game playoff run.  You're ignoring the 88 games that he's played since then because it favors your argument.  That's the issue I have.  I have no issue with you thinking Tatum is a stud and Ingram is a dud, but there's got to be more than some g-string thin logic there.

[CWood21]

3 hours ago, GSUeagles14 said:

@CWood21 @MookieMonstah You guys have been arguing the same crap for like 4 months. You both seem more than a little homerish on this issue so heres the viewpoint of someone who does have a dog in the race... Neither Tautum or Ingram is as good or valuable as you rate them. Tatums value has undoubtedly gone down after this year and Ingram quite frankly shouldnt be a centerpiece of a trade. ingram had like 8 really good games before his year ended but outside of that his shot is still way too suspect. Hes a starter that can occasionally handle the scoring load but shouldnt be counted on consistently. he doesnt do any one thing well enough to be a star. The thought that Tatum will just go back to being the guy he was his rookie year because Kyrie is gone is kinda laughable. doesnt work that way and its unknown which way his career will turn. Worst case however hes probably a rich mans brandon ingram.

Still think the knicks can put together the best offer tbh.

Maybe so.  My argument has been around this ridiculous double standard that Mookie keeps putting out there.  Tatum is a stud because he had a 19 game stretch in the playoffs where he played well.  And he's disregarded the 88 games since then and made very excuse underneath the sun for them.  If you think Tatum is a stud, I have no issue with that.  If you think Ingram is a dud, I have no issue with that.  But I'm going to call out posters if they lack the logic to support their argument.  This is more about Tatum than Ingram IMO.

[CWood21]

3 hours ago, GSUeagles14 said:

Still think the knicks can put together the best offer tbh.

That's laughable at best.  They're a distant 3rd unless you don't like Lonzo or Ingram, which is understandable.  New York's offer is very suspect.  The 3rd pick is the most valuable asset, and no I don't see this as a 3-player draft class by any means.  At this point, Frank Ntilikina is nothing more than a throw-in.  Kevin Knox is intriguing, but he's a bundle of tools at this point.  His production wasn't great last year, although I'm hardly writing him off at this point.  Mitchell Robinson is probably the 3rd best piece, and while I'm not as high on him as bk is he's a good piece.  Overall, this package lacks the star power or floor.

[amac]

13 minutes ago, CWood21 said:

That's laughable at best.  They're a distant 3rd unless you don't like Lonzo or Ingram, which is understandable.  New York's offer is very suspect.  The 3rd pick is the most valuable asset, and no I don't see this as a 3-player draft class by any means.  At this point, Frank Ntilikina is nothing more than a throw-in.  Kevin Knox is intriguing, but he's a bundle of tools at this point.  His production wasn't great last year, although I'm hardly writing him off at this point.  Mitchell Robinson is probably the 3rd best piece, and while I'm not as high on him as bk is he's a good piece.  Overall, this package lacks the star power or floor.

I could see Griffin being scared off by Ingram's blood clot and the Celtics not offering Jaylen Brown, in which case the Knicks offer becomes more enticing. Really depends how high you are on RJ Barrett, as I think banking on guys like Knox or Frank N. is sort of a crapshoot.

[Mox]

23 minutes ago, amac said:

It's not out of the realm of possibilities for him to get better at that aspect though, or to become a really good defender and have a Klay Thompson sort of value. It's too early to define his ceiling.  both sides of this long-standing argument on here go too far imo

Klay Thompson isn't a top 10 player though. I'm firmly on board with Tatum eventually being a top 20-30 guy. That's a great player. He's not going to be top 10 though.

[GSUeagles14]

35 minutes ago, CWood21 said:

That's laughable at best.  They're a distant 3rd unless you don't like Lonzo or Ingram, which is understandable.  New York's offer is very suspect.  The 3rd pick is the most valuable asset, and no I don't see this as a 3-player draft class by any means.  At this point, Frank Ntilikina is nothing more than a throw-in.  Kevin Knox is intriguing, but he's a bundle of tools at this point.  His production wasn't great last year, although I'm hardly writing him off at this point.  Mitchell Robinson is probably the 3rd best piece, and while I'm not as high on him as bk is he's a good piece.  Overall, this package lacks the star power or floor.

I dont like lonzo at all, he has no shot where in todays game a shot is the most important thing you need. Ingram is a good player. Hes a starter, and can score but hes not a star. Basically hes a good role player. The only parts i care bout in the knicks offer is dsj, robinson and the #3 pick. We obviously disagree about a couple of things but i think Barrett is easily the third best prospect and it isnt close really. Robinson and Smith are starters right now with still legit upside... I just think the upside and type of play the pelicans can run with smith, Barrett, zion and robinson is hard to turn down. 

[GSUeagles14]

51 minutes ago, Bullet Club said:

So you're saying my argument is bad but you believe Tatum has shown the two way promise to be Kawhi Leonard and is already a top 12 wing defender. GTFOH. Let me know when you have any evidence to back up that nonsense.

Youre aware of advance metrics right? Tatum being a very goo defensive player isnt controversial in the least. Hes in the top 10 over the last two years for non bigs in defensive win shares. Le me guess, you dont put any stock into these metrics? Or only when it fots your argument?

And his offense is self evident, hes a very good and efficient scorer. If hes more like the guy his rookie year then you have a star (possibly superstar), if hes more like the guy his sophomore year then you simply have a good role player. Theres really not a way to tell though and youve made fairly definitive statements with absolute crap arguments to back them up.