Jameson_Neat Posted August 19, 2019 Share Posted August 19, 2019 1 hour ago, showtime said: He won't be first ballot, but I think he'll eventually get in. But then that begs the question, how is Rivers overrated? That's the whole premise of this thread. He was drafted 4th overall in 2004 and has been a great player throughout the course of his career. He's been a tier 2 QB under guys like Peyton Manning, Tom Brady, Aaron Rodgers and Drew Brees - four of the greatest QB's ever. He and Big Ben have consistently been in that second tier of QB's pretty much for the last decade+. I don't see how Rivers is overrated at all. So the 5-6th QB of his era with no major hardware to his name. Doubtful. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thelonebillsfan Posted August 19, 2019 Share Posted August 19, 2019 (edited) 3 minutes ago, Starless said: The thinnest of margins separates a Philip Rivers career from a Peyton Manning career. It's the same logic used to diminish players like LT that never even got to the superbowl as if that makes them a lesser player because of it. It's absurd, is Phillip Rivers less of a QB than Joe Flacco? No, it's insane to try and justify it otherwise. If Eli Manning gets into the HoF for two games (and he will) and Rivers never gets in it'll make the thing even more of a joke than it is now. Edited August 19, 2019 by Thelonebillsfan 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thelonebillsfan Posted August 19, 2019 Share Posted August 19, 2019 (edited) Y'all know Warren Moon was only All-Pro once in his prolific and storied career and that he never even made it out of the divisional round? Is he not good enough? Was he not "a winner"? Edited August 19, 2019 by Thelonebillsfan 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apparition Posted August 19, 2019 Share Posted August 19, 2019 6 minutes ago, BofaDeez54927 said: So the 5-6th QB of his era with no major hardware to his name. Doubtful. What 'major hardware' did Dan Fouts and Jim Kelly have? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nightime Posted August 19, 2019 Share Posted August 19, 2019 (edited) 25 minutes ago, Starless said: The thinnest of margins separates a Philip Rivers career from a Peyton Manning career. Rivers is a solid quarterback But Manning was a feared quarterback That’s how I always viewed it when they played my team Edited August 19, 2019 by Nightime Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jameson_Neat Posted August 19, 2019 Share Posted August 19, 2019 1 minute ago, Starless said: What 'major hardware' did Dan Fouts and Jim Kelly have? Why would voters go back that far? Those names won't even come up. Then add a guy like Wilson and somewhat lower down the pole, Newton and Ryan, to the 5-6 already mentioned. Doubtful. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
showtime Posted August 19, 2019 Share Posted August 19, 2019 30 minutes ago, BofaDeez54927 said: So the 5-6th QB of his era with no major hardware to his name. Doubtful. Lol.... I guess you're conveniently leaving out the fact that he played in the same era as Tom Brady, Peyton Manning, Drew Brees and Aaron Rodgers. You could legit put those four guys as four of the top five QB's who have ever played the game. It's not a indictment against someone because they're placed lower than Brady, Manning, Brees and Rodgers. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apparition Posted August 19, 2019 Share Posted August 19, 2019 5 minutes ago, Nightime said: Rivers is a solid quarterback But Manning was a feared quarterback That’s how I always viewed it when they played my team I'm talking in terms of career accomplishments, not league-wide perception. And even that perception was predicated on Manning having a degree of autonomy within his offense that was never afforded to Rivers, let alone the vast majority of QBs. Peyton was given the opportunity pretty early on in his career to play mind games with the defense at the line of scrimmage. That's where most of his reputation came from. It wasn't from his arm talent, and it certainly wasn't from his ability to perform in big moments. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jameson_Neat Posted August 19, 2019 Share Posted August 19, 2019 (edited) 7 minutes ago, showtime said: 7 minutes ago, showtime said: Lol.... I guess you're conveniently leaving out the fact that he played in the same era as Tom Brady, Peyton Manning, Drew Brees and Aaron Rodgers. You could legit put those four guys as four of the top five QB's who have ever played the game. It's not a indictment against someone because they're placed lower than Brady, Manning, Brees and Rodgers. No, but he's clearly behind Roethlisberger as well. And probably Wilson when all is said and done. And also Newton, considering he has an MVP and the ridiculous QB rushing records. Even if you leave out Newton, he's what, 7th? Bad timing and all, it's still doubtful. Edited August 19, 2019 by BofaDeez54927 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
showtime Posted August 19, 2019 Share Posted August 19, 2019 The narrative of Peyton Manning nearly his entire career is that he was a choker in the playoffs. He always put up elite numbers/MVP numbers in the regular season, but he was very rarely able to duplicate that in the postseason. That stigma stayed with Manning until the year the Colts won the Superbowl - aka the year his defense CARRIED him in the postseason. In the regular season that year, the Colts defense was the worst in the league. Then, in the playoffs, they somehow became some elite juggernaut and carried so hard and they ended up facing one of the worst SB teams in the Bears. Like, that one season completely changed Manning's legacy. Before that Peyton Manning was seen as a choker who 'didn't know how to win'. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apparition Posted August 19, 2019 Share Posted August 19, 2019 If I had one game to win, I'd take Rivers over Roethlisberger, honestly. People look at the two rings and assume that Ben has been money in the playoffs but in reality he's been anything but. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Art_Vandalay Posted August 19, 2019 Share Posted August 19, 2019 1 hour ago, Starless said: 2006: best offense in the league. Doesn't play great in the one playoff game but everyone who watched that game knows that the Chargers lost it because of Marlon McCree. 2007: Rivers plays with a torn ACL in the AFCCG, and his all-world RB decides to sit out most of the game with a relatively minor knee injury. Not exactly ideal circumstances. 2008: team goes 8-8 after the wheels come off the defense and Tomlinson starts breaking down. 2009: Yeah, they went 13-3 but Rivers basically carried that team. The running game was the worst in the NFL and the defense was strictly average. Yes, they probably should've beaten the Jets in the playoffs (and Rivers didn't have a great game) but they weren't making it much further than they did. Also, don't forget that for 3 of those years they were coached by one Norval Eugene Turner. What-ifs don't get you into the Hall. Romo "If Patrick Crayton didn't stop on that route at the end of that Giants game, they would've won and probably made it to the ship." "If Demarco didn't fumble that ball or Dez's catch was actually ruled a catch, they would've went all the way." Palmer "If he didn't end up with the dysfunctional Bengals and Raiders in the prime of his career, he would've been an all-time great." "If his knee doesn't get hit in the knee against Pitt, he would've at least made it to the Super Bowl." Donovan "If they just would've ran a two minute drill against the Pats, Donovan may have a ring." "If the defense gets one stop against the Cards, they probably beat Pitt in the Super Bowl." You can apply what-ifs to literally any "Hall of Very Good" QB, but it's completely and utterly pointless. What matters with QB's are awards and hardware. 55 minutes ago, Starless said: What 'major hardware' did Dan Fouts and Jim Kelly have? Jim Kelly Four AFC Championship rings One 1st Team All-Pro One 2nd Team All-Pro Dan Fouts 2x 1st Team All-Pro 2x 2nd Team All-Pro NFL OPOTY And then there's Philip Rivers greatest accomplishments... 2013 Comeback Player of the Year 30 minutes ago, showtime said: The narrative of Peyton Manning nearly his entire career is that he was a choker in the playoffs. He always put up elite numbers/MVP numbers in the regular season, but he was very rarely able to duplicate that in the postseason. That stigma stayed with Manning until the year the Colts won the Superbowl - aka the year his defense CARRIED him in the postseason. In the regular season that year, the Colts defense was the worst in the league. Then, in the playoffs, they somehow became some elite juggernaut and carried so hard and they ended up facing one of the worst SB teams in the Bears. Like, that one season completely changed Manning's legacy. Before that Peyton Manning was seen as a choker who 'didn't know how to win'. He'd still be in the Hall if he never won a ship due to all of his awards (MVP's / All-Pros) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apparition Posted August 19, 2019 Share Posted August 19, 2019 8 minutes ago, Art_Vandalay said: What-ifs don't get you into the Hall. Romo "If Patrick Crayton didn't stop on that route at the end of that Giants game, they would've won and probably made it to the ship." "If Demarco didn't fumble that ball or Dez's catch was actually ruled a catch, they would've went all the way." Palmer "If he didn't end up with the dysfunctional Bengals and Raiders in the prime of his career, he would've been an all-time great." "If his knee doesn't get hit in the knee against Pitt, he would've at least made it to the Super Bowl." Donovan "If they just would've ran a two minute drill against the Pats, Donovan may have a ring." "If the defense gets one stop against the Cards, they probably beat Pitt in the Super Bowl."You can apply what-ifs to literally any "Hall of Very Good" QB, but it's completely and utterly pointless. What matters with QB's are awards and hardware. Romo is the only one of these three who has ever been in Rivers' ballpark as a QB, and his career was largely derailed by injuries. Nobody is suggesting other QBs haven't had bad luck. But for a player of Rivers' caliber, circumstance will always be a factor in just how much success they have. Can you honestly say that if a few plays hadn't gone the other way, Peyton Manning would still have rings? Or Eli Manning? or Roethlisberger? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thelonebillsfan Posted August 19, 2019 Share Posted August 19, 2019 (edited) 5 minutes ago, Starless said: Romo is the only one of these three who has ever been in Rivers' ballpark as a QB, and his career was largely derailed by injuries. Nobody is suggesting other QBs haven't had bad luck. But for a player of Rivers' caliber, circumstance will always be a factor in just how much success they have. Can you honestly say that if a few plays hadn't gone the other way, Peyton Manning would still have rings? Or Eli Manning? or Roethlisberger? If not for a fluke tackle Peyton probably has another ring and Ben flubs away that first one. Or if his "idiot kicker" doesn't shank a 45 yard kick. You should measure circumstance when talking about this stuff, things happen out of players control all the time, you shouldn't hold that against them. It's stupid to do so. Edited August 19, 2019 by Thelonebillsfan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apparition Posted August 19, 2019 Share Posted August 19, 2019 Just now, Thelonebillsfan said: If not for a fluke tackle Peyton probably has another ring and Ben flubs away that first one. Yup. And for a number of others there were plays that swung entire seasons for which they weren't even on the field. Remember Reche Caldwell in the '06 AFCCG? or Gostkowski's missed PAT in '15? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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