CWood21 Posted July 9, 2018 Share Posted July 9, 2018 17 hours ago, hrubes20 said: No, this is what AA does. He did it in Toronto routinely, which led to them not signing either Tyler Beede or Phil Bickford as 1st rounders. He knows their price tags going in, drafts them, and then negotiates very little with them, many times giving the "take it or leave it" ultimatum right out of the gate. There have been several draftees that have come out and said this is how he handled their negotiations. And it theoretically makes a lot of sense, business-wise. Take a prep pitcher with a healthy price tag; take other players later in draft that also have sizeable price tags (Zach Hess in 2018); offer them well under slot, but still worth several million; realize that the vast majority of advisors would not tell a prep pitcher to walk away from a couple million; then sit back and A) have him sign the greatly reduced offer, while also being able to sign the later overslot; or B) have him go to college, while gaining a 1st rounder the next year and having a ginormous bonus pool to play with. It's a slimy way to operate, but you can't argue its benefits. Going further, I wouldn't be shocked at all if Stewart's wrist thing was blown way out of proportion to give AA even more leverage. I'm struggling to even think of a pitcher that had a serious enough wrist injury to halt their career. Couldn't prove that obviously, but it wouldn't be surprising if we ever got word that it happened. I mean, I think there's two different situations and being distorted as one. If you come across enough significant medical concerns, you have every right to drop your offer low enough to where you qualify to have another pick next year. It's another one where you go into the draft with the intention of not coming anywhere near the price tag, and essentially offer that "take it or leave it" offer. Maybe the Braves came into the draft and thought they weren't real fond of the high picks in this year's draft, but I don't think teams really operate with the agenda to move their picks into future years. I just don't think teams are as fond as punting on their picks as you do. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ramssuperbowl99 Posted July 9, 2018 Author Share Posted July 9, 2018 (edited) 40 minutes ago, CWood21 said: I mean, I think there's two different situations and being distorted as one. If you come across enough significant medical concerns, you have every right to drop your offer low enough to where you qualify to have another pick next year. It's another one where you go into the draft with the intention of not coming anywhere near the price tag, and essentially offer that "take it or leave it" offer. Maybe the Braves came into the draft and thought they weren't real fond of the high picks in this year's draft, but I don't think teams really operate with the agenda to move their picks into future years. I just don't think teams are as fond as punting on their picks as you do. The goal isn't to move a first round pick, the goal is to leverage a kid to sign for less than he broadcast before the draft. AA has done this more than once as @hrubes20 pointed out, and we saw the DBacks and Dodgers try the same thing to no avail. And for every kid that stands his ground, how many more bite for the $1.5-2M payday? It's just enough money where you can go start an MLB career, invest it wisely, and never have to worry about working a crappy job again after you're done. 17 hours ago, hrubes20 said: $1 million underslot is nowhere close to full slot value, regardless of what pick it was. Unless his wrist is falling off, which is highly doubtful considering he pitched with it this spring, they should have at least negotiated with Stewart, instead of giving him a "take it or leave it" offer for 40% of slot. They didn't, which has been AA's MO since his Toronto days. They had all the leverage there, and played it well from a business perspective. But they effed over an 18 year old kid, plain and simple. Thus, dirtbag. This is a perfect summary. The only thing you could add is that when you take a guy 8th ahead of multiple high bonus pool teams, you deny any other team a chance to actually meet his price tag. It's one thing if you wait until the 11th round, every team had multiple chances to take a kid at that point so really the number wasn't going to be met by anyone. You think the Rays or Royals give Carter Stewart $4.5M? (Let's say, hypothetically, that was the number.) I do. Edited July 9, 2018 by ramssuperbowl99 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ramssuperbowl99 Posted July 9, 2018 Author Share Posted July 9, 2018 17 hours ago, hrubes20 said: Going further, I wouldn't be shocked at all if Stewart's wrist thing was blown way out of proportion to give AA even more leverage. I'm struggling to even think of a pitcher that had a serious enough wrist injury to halt their career. Couldn't prove that obviously, but it wouldn't be surprising if we ever got word that it happened. 100%. This screams Orioles medical staff BS. We're not done with this trend either. Instead of blowing past the bonus pools and punting low 1st round picks, teams are getting more and more ruthless with their draft dollars because of the hard capped pools. This is going to get more prevalent. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CWood21 Posted July 9, 2018 Share Posted July 9, 2018 10 minutes ago, ramssuperbowl99 said: The goal isn't to move a first round pick, the goal is to leverage a kid to sign for less than he broadcast before the draft. AA has done this more than once as @hrubes20 pointed out, and we saw the DBacks and Dodgers try the same thing to no avail. And for every kid that stands his ground, how many more bite for the $1.5-2M payday? It's just enough money where you can go start an MLB career, invest it wisely, and never have to worry about working a crappy job again after you're done. I don't buy it. Teams don't go into the draft without knowing what players' numbers are. If they don't know the number, then they aren't doing their job. Let's say Carter walked into the draft with a number of $5.5M, which is about 500k higher than the slot for the Braves pick. If the Braves came into the draft knowing they were only going to offer 80% of the pick value which is ~$4M, then yes you could make an argument that they were being slimy. Excluding the top 10 picks, by my count 3 of the first round picks were signed for under slot value of at least 500k. In contrast, we had 3 players sign for at least 500k+ than their slot value. I mean, I think you're overstating how low the initial offer was. I believe the Mets had the lowest % decrease from their bonus pool of all the 10 picks at around 81% of the slot value. How many teams could offer Carter Stewart ~$4M? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ramssuperbowl99 Posted July 9, 2018 Author Share Posted July 9, 2018 2 minutes ago, CWood21 said: I don't buy it. Teams don't go into the draft without knowing what players' numbers are. If they don't know the number, then they aren't doing their job. Let's say Carter walked into the draft with a number of $5.5M, which is about 500k higher than the slot for the Braves pick. If the Braves came into the draft knowing they were only going to offer 80% of the pick value which is ~$4M, then yes you could make an argument that they were being slimy. That is, based on track record and testimonials of other AA draft picks, overwhelmingly likely what happened. Except what the Braves did was way more pronounced. Stewart went in with a number, whether that's slot or above slot at #8, the Braves knew they weren't going to come close, took him anyway, and dared him to turn it down. 3 minutes ago, CWood21 said: Excluding the top 10 picks, by my count 3 of the first round picks were signed for under slot value of at least 500k. In contrast, we had 3 players sign for at least 500k+ than their slot value. I mean, I think you're overstating how low the initial offer was. I believe the Mets had the lowest % decrease from their bonus pool of all the 10 picks at around 81% of the slot value. How many teams could offer Carter Stewart ~$4M? Theoretically? All 30. Every bonus pool was greater than $5M and you get 5% overage before draft pick penalties. Realistically, half. 15 teams had a bonus pool greater than or equal to $8.2M ($8.6M including overage). Burning half your pool on a top 5 prospect you float isn't that crazy. Hell, the Brewers had the 24th biggest pool, signed a bunch of guys overslot outside of the top 10 rounds, and gave Bryce Turang $3.4M. And Stewart is a much better prospect than he is. Not only did the Braves not meet it, they didn't even come close. It'd have been scumbaggy to draft a pick who wanted $4M and only offer him $3.5M. But they only offered him $2M. That's slot on the Dodgers 1st round pick, and the had the smallest bonus pool of anyone. That is beyond playing hardball. That's the MLB version of offering your first round draft pick minimum wage. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hrubes20 Posted July 9, 2018 Share Posted July 9, 2018 16 minutes ago, CWood21 said: I don't buy it. Teams don't go into the draft without knowing what players' numbers are. If they don't know the number, then they aren't doing their job. Let's say Carter walked into the draft with a number of $5.5M, which is about 500k higher than the slot for the Braves pick. If the Braves came into the draft knowing they were only going to offer 80% of the pick value which is ~$4M, then yes you could make an argument that they were being slimy. Excluding the top 10 picks, by my count 3 of the first round picks were signed for under slot value of at least 500k. In contrast, we had 3 players sign for at least 500k+ than their slot value. I mean, I think you're overstating how low the initial offer was. I believe the Mets had the lowest % decrease from their bonus pool of all the 10 picks at around 81% of the slot value. How many teams could offer Carter Stewart ~$4M? I believe it was Tyler Beede that came forward after he didn't sign with Toronto and said that AA did this exact thing, and others have since confirmed that is how he operates. Beede's number was $3.5 million pre-draft. Everyone knew that. AA waited until the last day to negotiate with him, and offered him $2 million early in the day, which was declined quickly by Beede. AA then waited until minutes before the deadline to make a "take-it-or-leave-it" offer of $2.5 million. I doubt very much that AA has changed his negotiation tactics. Rams addressed the rest, and far more eloquently than I would have. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GSUeagles14 Posted July 9, 2018 Share Posted July 9, 2018 (edited) 28 minutes ago, ramssuperbowl99 said: That is, based on track record and testimonials of other AA draft picks, overwhelmingly likely what happened. Except what the Braves did was way more pronounced. Stewart went in with a number, whether that's slot or above slot at #8, the Braves knew they weren't going to come close, took him anyway, and dared him to turn it down. Theoretically? All 30. Every bonus pool was greater than $5M and you get 5% overage before draft pick penalties. Realistically, half. 15 teams had a bonus pool greater than or equal to $8.2M ($8.6M including overage). Burning half your pool on a top 5 prospect you float isn't that crazy. Hell, the Brewers had the 24th biggest pool, signed a bunch of guys overslot outside of the top 10 rounds, and gave Bryce Turang $3.4M. And Stewart is a much better prospect than he is. Not only did the Braves not meet it, they didn't even come close. It'd have been scumbaggy to draft a pick who wanted $4M and only offer him $3.5M. But they only offered him $2M. That's slot on the Dodgers 1st round pick, and the had the smallest bonus pool of anyone. That is beyond playing hardball. That's the MLB version of offering your first round draft pick minimum wage. logic is really taking a hit here. instead of listening to pretty much every report out there saying the braves were concerned with his wrist, you feel like its not that but just the braves strong arming him by offering him 2.5 mil under slot just to save some money. can you please link any article saying this was just a ploy to save money and the braves never had any intention of coming near slot? what do the braves gain by this? this is just people changing reality to fit a narrative they have in their head. Edited July 9, 2018 by GSUeagles14 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ramssuperbowl99 Posted July 9, 2018 Author Share Posted July 9, 2018 9 minutes ago, hrubes20 said: I believe it was Tyler Beede that came forward after he didn't sign with Toronto and said that AA did this exact thing, and others have since confirmed that is how he operates. Beede's number was $3.5 million pre-draft. Everyone knew that. AA waited until the last day to negotiate with him, and offered him $2 million early in the day, which was declined quickly by Beede. AA then waited until minutes before the deadline to make a "take-it-or-leave-it" offer of $2.5 million. I doubt very much that AA has changed his negotiation tactics. Rams addressed the rest, and far more eloquently than I would have. It's generous to even call that negotiation. It's like that scene out of Goodfellas... "**** you sign the contract" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hrubes20 Posted July 9, 2018 Share Posted July 9, 2018 3 hours ago, GSUeagles14 said: logic is really taking a hit here. instead of listening to pretty much every report out there saying the braves were concerned with his wrist, you feel like its not that but just the braves strong arming him by offering him 2.5 mil under slot just to save some money. can you please link any article saying this was just a ploy to save money and the braves never had any intention of coming near slot? what do the braves gain by this? this is just people changing reality to fit a narrative they have in their head. You mean, other than all the things that have already been said in this thread about it? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
devils1854 Posted July 9, 2018 Share Posted July 9, 2018 Havent really kept up with much the past week because of vacation, but I do wonder if the Braves purposely were offering low because of the number that Zack Hess was saying he needed to sign, and giving Stewart close to 4 mil would have put Hess out of range. Doesnt matter now since they dont have either, but I think its something to consider. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GSUeagles14 Posted July 10, 2018 Share Posted July 10, 2018 3 hours ago, hrubes20 said: You mean, other than all the things that have already been said in this thread about it? remind me what was said? they had little tiino chance at signing him for 2 mil and they knew that , so what was it exactly? any thoughts on my other questions? ci looked into the beede signing and couldnt find any public statements againsts aa. and even that sitaution was way different than stewarts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hrubes20 Posted July 10, 2018 Share Posted July 10, 2018 16 hours ago, GSUeagles14 said: remind me what was said? they had little tiino chance at signing him for 2 mil and they knew that , so what was it exactly? any thoughts on my other questions? ci looked into the beede signing and couldnt find any public statements againsts aa. and even that sitaution was way different than stewarts. Go read all posts that Rams and I made. It's spelled out clearly how operating like that would benefit the Braves. I'm shocked someone would even need to ask that question. What other questions? Your asinine request for a link that shows the Braves purposely lowballed Stewart? That obviously wouldn't exist. The Braves would get lambasted all over the place if that existed. And apparently you didn't look very hard for stuff on the Beede signing that I referenced, where it was first let known how AA operates. http://www.espn.com/blog/boston/high-school/post/_/id/8895/for-beede-no-regrets-on-decision-to-spurn This was the 2nd link in a google search for "Tyler Beede doesn't sign with Blue Jays". I'm actually pretty surprised I remembered what went down so accurately. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GSUeagles14 Posted July 10, 2018 Share Posted July 10, 2018 28 minutes ago, hrubes20 said: Go read all posts that Rams and I made. It's spelled out clearly how operating like that would benefit the Braves. I'm shocked someone would even need to ask that question. What other questions? Your asinine request for a link that shows the Braves purposely lowballed Stewart? That obviously wouldn't exist. The Braves would get lambasted all over the place if that existed. And apparently you didn't look very hard for stuff on the Beede signing that I referenced, where it was first let known how AA operates. http://www.espn.com/blog/boston/high-school/post/_/id/8895/for-beede-no-regrets-on-decision-to-spurn This was the 2nd link in a google search for "Tyler Beede doesn't sign with Blue Jays". I'm actually pretty surprised I remembered what went down so accurately. thats the article i read, i looked at a couple others looking for actual criticism and couldnt find. still nothing against aa. beede said hes going to vandy, toronto took a shot at him anyway. nothing wrong with that. reports are they (braves /stewart) had a # they were ok with predraft. then the wrist came in and dropped all the way to 2 mil. that clearly was just to get the pick next year . youre trying really hard not to say (or resay) how this would benefit the braves. i must be missing it because ive only seen that it will save them money to go after other guys which is moronic. the braves arent that stupid to think hed sign for marginally over 40% of slot. so they neither have hess or stewart, which was the likely scenario at that offer. again, every report ive seen has said the braves werent comfortable with the wrist. youre take is the wrist is fine, the braves just wabted him to take a 2.5 mil discount to save money. on what planet does that make sense? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KhanYouDigIt Posted July 15, 2018 Share Posted July 15, 2018 good morning good afternoon goodnight Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
THE DUKE Posted July 16, 2018 Share Posted July 16, 2018 (edited) Taylor Trammell wins Futures Game MVP with a HR and a triple off the top of the wall. The HR went 438 feet. Edited July 16, 2018 by THE DUKE Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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