Player Performance Talk 2018 (How they're playing; struggles, bright spots, etc.)

[LETSGOBROWNIES]

1 hour ago, ditchdigger said:

Because you asked a question, and I answered.

Then you called me an idiot because I don't care to waste time evaluating potential coaching candidates.

Now I'm the pissy one? 

Again, if you don't like what I have to say, there is a function on this message board that allows you to not have to view my posts. I suggest you employ that feature on me until the coach is inevitably fired and we start see who Jimmy brings in for interviews. I don't want to be a negative influence you or your idea that things are just fine with this 1-21 coach.

No, you haven't answered anything, you've just continued to show you haven't bothered to even form a complete thought about the issue before endlessly complaining.

You want to endlessly argue that "someone" will do "something" better.  You're making an idiotic argument that we should fire a guy for not being able win with a roster that no coach should be expected from to win with at this stage. Youngest roster in the league, 21 year old rookie qb, new defensive coordinator and new defensive scheme, ect.

You keep talking about how we should be seeing improvement in year 2.  Year two for who? The rookie qb? Nope? 40% of the OL? The entire receiving corp? Nope. Half of the DL? Nope. The entire starting secondary? Nope. Hell, the entire defense is learning a new scheme (again).

The fact that you think Jimmy Haslam potentially firing a coach somehow strengthens your point is laughable. It's literally the only thing he's managed to do as an owner while leading this franchise to all time lows but this lays at Hue's feet? Ok...

The same people argue every year "there's no point in having continuity just for the sake of continuity..." But that's literally the only thing we haven't yet tried under this owner.

I'll continue to read your asinine posts, ask you to explain the absurd, underdeveloped opinion and if you don't like that, feel free to use the ignore feature yourself. 

[Thomas5737]

6 hours ago, LETSGOBROWNIES said:

For me personally next year? 5-6 wins, 8+ year 4. The lack of a viable qb is a problem that can't wait another year. They haven't landed that guy yet, which has been the biggest issue, but that lays as Sashi's feet, not Hue's, but that's another discussion.

What's the difference if it's a 3 or 5 year plan? Some aren't patient enough to wait a year and a half without calling for someone's head so it's a pretty moot point, no?

I guess I don't see the problem with letting a group have 3-4 years to implement their plan if they said from the beginning it was a complete tear down and they felt it would make that much time.  If they knew they had to win year two I'm guessing they'd have done things differently, but it seems everyone was on board with the complete overhaul.

And I'm okay going into next year with Hue. However if it starts out like this one I'm pushing myself in front of Ditch and calling for Hue's head. There should be some progress this year. There has to be next year.

[Kiwibrown]

I agree that there is a chopping lock for hues head. I just don't thik he is aware of it yet. 

At the moment i think our coaching is preforming worse than our talent. I would rather Hue goes than Sachi. 

I hope in Sachi not Hue. 

I don't think we will get a good coahc until we win at least 5 games and have talent. 

[LETSGOBROWNIES]

1 minute ago, Thomas5737 said:

And I'm okay going into next year with Hue. However if it starts out like this one I'm pushing myself in front of Ditch and calling for Hue's head. There should be some progress this year. There has to be next year.

That, to me, is at least reasonable.

Hue needs a qb. Without one we aren't going to win much.  I just think some folks are expecting him to work miracles here.

Has he been perfect? Hell no, there have been plenty of questionable decisions. I just think a lot of those things happen when a coach has to essentially call a perfect game because the talent isn't going to cover for him in any way.

Hue needs an OC IMO, being the HC is a huge job on its own with this team. This roster needs more talent and a lot more experience.

[Thomas5737]

46 minutes ago, LETSGOBROWNIES said:

. I just think a lot of those things happen when a coach has to essentially call a perfect game because the talent isn't going to cover for him in any way.

Yeah not buying that at all. He is failing because he has to be perfect? We have more talent than the Jets. We have more talent than the Colts. It certainly isn't lopsided in their favor. The 6 turnovers in those two games were a big difference but that is from sloppy play which falls on the coach. The offense, Hue's offense, has been sloppy all year. Kizer is a sloppy QB. Hogan is a sloppy QB. Osweiler would have been a sloppy QB. There is a missing, inactive name that isn't a sloppy QB but he doesn't fit Hue's sloppy offense so he doesn't start preseason or regular season games. That is on Hue. Kessler may not have a future as a starting QB in the NFL but he is the best option we have and keeping him inactive is doing a disservice to the rest of the team, especially the defense and that is solely on the head coach. If we're so bad that we can't even win with Kessler then I get it, I just don't believe that to be the case. I'd expect to have at least 2 wins with Kessler starting by now. It may not save the season but it might keep the guys interested.

[LETSGOBROWNIES]

20 minutes ago, Thomas5737 said:

Yeah not buying that at all. He is failing because he has to be perfect? We have more talent than the Jets. We have more talent than the Colts. It certainly isn't lopsided in their favor. The 6 turnovers in those two games were a big difference but that is from sloppy play which falls on the coach. The offense, Hue's offense, has been sloppy all year. Kizer is a sloppy QB. Hogan is a sloppy QB. Osweiler would have been a sloppy QB. There is a missing, inactive name that isn't a sloppy QB but he doesn't fit Hue's sloppy offense so he doesn't start preseason or regular season games. That is on Hue. Kessler may not have a future as a starting QB in the NFL but he is the best option we have and keeping him inactive is doing a disservice to the rest of the team, especially the defense and that is solely on the head coach. If we're so bad that we can't even win with Kessler then I get it, I just don't believe that to be the case. I'd expect to have at least 2 wins with Kessler starting by now. It may not save the season but it might keep the guys interested.

Maybe.  He was 0-8 last season so it's hard to say he'd be leading us to wins.

I think his refusal to play Kessler is a bad day look though, I'll agree with the that.

Personally I don't think it's a terribly huge deal as we still need a viable starter most likely and 3 wins only prohibits that (more so than less wins does).

[Thomas5737]

50 minutes ago, LETSGOBROWNIES said:

Maybe.  He was 0-8 last season so it's hard to say he'd be leading us to wins.

I think his refusal to play Kessler is a bad day look though, I'll agree with the that.

Personally I don't think it's a terribly huge deal as we still need a viable starter most likely and 3 wins only prohibits that (more so than less wins does).

Yeah he was 0-8 with Cam Erving, Auston Pastzor and company protecting him. Kessler had the opportunity to win us a few games late in the 4th quarter last year and failed, partly because of the kicking game but partly because he isn't a threat with his arm going downfield and that limits the offense. The offensive line limited the offense too, he didn't have time to let plays develop down the field. Sure he could have taken more sacks, he took a bunch as it was or he could have just thrown caution into the wind and threw a bunch of interceptions but that is dumb football, the football we have seen played out this season.

We don't have a good roster overall, at least not at this stage of the players careers but it isn't void of talent either. Kizer's best game by far was the Steeler game.

D.Kizer pass short right to D.Njoku to CLV 37 for 13 yards
D.Kizer pass short left to M.Dayes to CLV 31 for 1 yard
D.Kizer pass incomplete deep right to D.Johnson
D.Kizer pass short middle to D.Johnson to CLV 48 for 14 yards
D.Kizer pass short middle to R.Louis to PIT 43 for 3 yards
D.Kizer pass short middle to M.Dayes to PIT 34 for 8 yards
D.Kizer pass short right to D.Johnson to PIT 24 for 6 yards
D.Kizer pass incomplete deep middle to D.Njoku
D.Kizer pass incomplete deep middle to S.DeValve
D.Kizer pass short right to S.DeValve to CLV 48 for 9 yards
D.Kizer pass deep middle to C.Coleman to PIT 41 for 19 yards
D.Kizer pass incomplete deep right to K.Williams
D.Kizer pass incomplete deep right to K.Britt.
D.Kizer pass incomplete deep left to C.Coleman
D.Kizer pass short right to C.Coleman to CLV 27 for 13 yards
D.Kizer pass deep right to C.Coleman to PIT 36 for 23 yards
D.Kizer pass short left to S.DeValve to PIT 11 for 21 yards
D.Kizer pass short left to C.Coleman to CLV 20 for -5 yards
D.Kizer pass incomplete short left to R.Louis
D.Kizer pass incomplete deep left to C.Coleman.
D.Kizer pass short right to K.Britt to 50 for 13 yards
D.Kizer pass incomplete short left to D.Johnson
D.Kizer pass short left to S.DeValve to PIT 36 for 6 yards
D.Kizer pass short left intended for K.Williams INTERCEPTED by T.Watt
D.Kizer pass incomplete deep middle to K.Britt
D.Kizer pass short right to S.DeValve to CLV 28 for 6 yards
D.Kizer pass incomplete deep right to D.Johnson
D.Kizer pass short left to I.Crowell to CLV 37 for 10 yards
D.Kizer pass deep right to R.Louis to PIT 34 for 29 yard
D.Kizer pass short middle to I.Crowell to PIT 11 for 23 yards
D.Kizer pass short left to D.Njoku to PIT 3 for 7 yards
D.Kizer pass incomplete short middle to R.Louis
Corey Coleman Pass From DeShone Kizer for 3 Yrd

Kizer was 3-12 on deep passes (and took 7 sacks but lets just ignore those and not count them against deep or short passes) for 71 yards. He was very effective in the short passing game even though there was a pick in there. So he averaged about 5 yards per deep pass attempt. What are we really missing with Kessler when this was by far Kizer's best game and 17 of his 20 completions were on short passes?

Kizer then threw a higher percentage of deep passes against the Ravens with minimal success and did have 3 short passes picked off. In the last possession when we needed to cover a lot of ground and recover an onside kick he threw all (11 total) short passes which ate up almost 3 and a half minutes before turning it over on downs with less than 30 seconds left. Again, Kessler could have performed better with what Kizer found success with.

I'm not going to keep going but Kizer is the worst rated passer on throws more than 10 yards, it may not all be on him but it isn't working. Unfortunately he is also the lowest rated passer on throws less than 10 yards which likely would not be the case if Kessler were starting. I understand why Kessler isn't starting as he doesn't fit Hue's offense but the Browns offensive personnel doesn't fit Hue's offense so why even worry about playing it.

I understand why Kessler isn't starting but I'm done accepting it. I will never root for failure so obviously I'm not going to care about draft position during the season so if a QB can offer us more wins I will take them. Winning breeds winning. Losing breeds losing. We need to turn this around sooner than later and lets get Kessler in there and see if he can show Kizer how to best make this offense work and once we are mathematically eliminated Kizer can take another shot at it. Kizer isn't growing as a QB while playing so I don't think sitting should stunt his growth any.

[Mind Character]

2 hours ago, Thomas5737 said:

Yeah not buying that at all. He is failing because he has to be perfect? We have more talent than the Jets. We have more talent than the Colts. It certainly isn't lopsided in their favor. The 6 turnovers in those two games were a big difference but that is from sloppy play which falls on the coach. The offense, Hue's offense, has been sloppy all year. Kizer is a sloppy QB. Hogan is a sloppy QB. Osweiler would have been a sloppy QB. There is a missing, inactive name that isn't a sloppy QB but he doesn't fit Hue's sloppy offense so he doesn't start preseason or regular season games. That is on Hue. Kessler may not have a future as a starting QB in the NFL but he is the best option we have and keeping him inactive is doing a disservice to the rest of the team, especially the defense and that is solely on the head coach. If we're so bad that we can't even win with Kessler then I get it, I just don't believe that to be the case. I'd expect to have at least 2 wins with Kessler starting by now. It may not save the season but it might keep the guys interested.

I love Cody,

but they saw what he was and gave him a chance to win the job...he didn't take it; made tons of turnovers in practice so they tried a vet and then trotted out the new shiny rookie guy. Hogan they hadn't seen and up until last week and the INT against the ravens before half proved to be decent in real live action.

I'd actually like to see them go back to Cody but that doesn't mesh with figuring out what Kizer is and isn't... if we're 0-14...Hue probably goes to Cody to try to get a win...proving that Cody was a better option for trying to win than Deshone the rookie QB...which of course should be obvious.

inexperience/youth is the great equalizer when it comes to talent.

Besides that,the perception of "Talent" is subjective...I think it's accurate to say we have more "potential talent" than those teams.

But in the here and now, We have more talent than the Colts & Jets on our offensive line, but we absolutely don't have more anywhere else.

The Jets at WR have Jermaine Kearse (baller that was hidden behind talent in seattle), Jeremy Kurley (700yard seasons), Ardarius Stewart (2nd Rnd grade by Bucky Brooks who also said he'd be a number 1 at some point),

At TE they have ASJ who wouldve went top 20 if not for off field issues and now is a recovering alcoholic that's sober and is the number 1 TE in the league. He's a monster athletically and it's all clicking.

OL we are better at

RB is a tossup

QB is in favor of Mccown due to past success and experience

On defense Leonard Williams, Mo Wilk, Jamal Adams, Darron Lee, Mo Claiborne, Marcus Maye, Buster Skrine,Demario Davis (leading tackler in the nfl)

The Jets are more talented

-------------------------

Colts are more comparable to the Browns but they are still more talented and have more impact players w/ the added benefit of experience

Offense: TY Hilton, Kamar Aiken, Donte Moncrief (All better than our WRs), RB Frank Gore (still has juice and is better than Crow), Jack Doyle, OL is meh

Defense: Jonathan Hankins, John Simon, Jabaal Sheard, Vontae Davis, Quincy Wilson, Malik Hooker

------

Our guys haven't been all that healthy but when they are we have the defensive talent in Shelton, Garrett, Collins, Kirksey, Mccourty, and maybe BBC

On offense we have Duke Johnson, an OL, and a rising TE David Njoku...that's literally it...

[Thomas5737]

3 minutes ago, Mind Character said:

I love Cody, but they saw what he was and gave him a chance to win the job...he didn't take it; made tons of turnovers in practice

Practice? The named starter loses his job in practice? Never even gets to play with the ones in preseason? I hated the draft pick of Kessler, thought it was stupid. Know what he did though with his little popgun arm? Looked like a legitimate QB that a team could win around until something better came along. What better came along and took his job? Brock freaking Osweiler. Well that failed as everyone was 90% sure of. Next in line, the 21 year old rookie with the big arm. Whoa, Kessler went from #1 at the start of camp to #3 without ever playing in a preseason game with starters? Nope, he went to #4. Behind emergency QB Kevin Hogan. Hogan looked good, I was excited. Because I thought he was a better QB than Kessler? Nope, because he wasn't Osweiler or a struggling rookie. Well that didn't go well. He hurt his ribs and now Hue is fighting the battle to name Kessler or Ricardo Louis as backup behind Kizer this week. I'm guessing Louis gets the call if Kizer gets a migraine.

Pathetic.

Practice? Practice is practice. You try things. You try to improve in your areas of weakness. It's like not making the cut on a PGA tour because you hooked a few balls off of the tee in the driving range with your new driver before the tournament even started. Sorry sir, we saw you practicing and you didn't make the cut. I don't care if you finished 19th last week you proved more on the driving range this morning.

Practice? Really? Didn't look good enough in the 7 on 7 drills in camp so we ignore 2016 and his 90 something rating? Because of practice?

Kessler started 4 games last year from start to finish. Yards in those games: 244, 223, 336 and 203. Over 250 yards per completed game. Ain't no one thrown for 250 yards for us this year. We did combine for 300 yards against the Ravens which looks nice until you see the 4 interceptions, twice as many as Kessler threw in nearly 200 attempts as a rookie. But...he didn't look good in practice. So you lose your job to three different players because of practice.

Suck it AI, I said it more times.

[Mind Character]

35 minutes ago, Thomas5737 said:

Practice? The named starter loses his job in practice? Never even gets to play with the ones in preseason? I hated the draft pick of Kessler, thought it was stupid. Know what he did though with his little popgun arm? Looked like a legitimate QB that a team could win around until something better came along. What better came along and took his job? Brock freaking Osweiler. Well that failed as everyone was 90% sure of. Next in line, the 21 year old rookie with the big arm. Whoa, Kessler went from #1 at the start of camp to #3 without ever playing in a preseason game with starters? Nope, he went to #4. Behind emergency QB Kevin Hogan. Hogan looked good, I was excited. Because I thought he was a better QB than Kessler? Nope, because he wasn't Osweiler or a struggling rookie. Well that didn't go well. He hurt his ribs and now Hue is fighting the battle to name Kessler or Ricardo Louis as backup behind Kizer this week. I'm guessing Louis gets the call if Kizer gets a migraine.

Pathetic.

Practice? Practice is practice. You try things. You try to improve in your areas of weakness. It's like not making the cut on a PGA tour because you hooked a few balls off of the tee in the driving range with your new driver before the tournament even started. Sorry sir, we saw you practicing and you didn't make the cut. I don't care if you finished 19th last week you proved more on the driving range this morning.

Practice? Really? Didn't look good enough in the 7 on 7 drills in camp so we ignore 2016 and his 90 something rating? Because of practice?

Kessler started 4 games last year from start to finish. Yards in those games: 244, 223, 336 and 203. Over 250 yards per completed game. Ain't no one thrown for 250 yards for us this year. We did combine for 300 yards against the Ravens which looks nice until you see the 4 interceptions, twice as many as Kessler threw in nearly 200 attempts as a rookie. But...he didn't look good in practice. So you lose your job to three different players because of practice.

Suck it AI, I said it more times.

Listen...you and I have been the few people in the Kessler camp.

I've spent tons of posts arguing how Cody was a rookie; could evolve/grow, and have backed you up when u've made such arguments...

But if a QB is throwing multiple INTs in practice in the redzone along with hesitations which Cody did over the span of 6 practices. That's a lot of poor  practice issues.

It does mean something man especially in the context that You have a big cannon armed 2nd round pick that was thought to have franchise QB upside by most competent evaluators all of which after ND vs Texas game thought he could be the number 1 overall pick...

They saw Cody's limitations over the course of the season....it makes sense to me why they might go away from Cody in favor of giving a young QB a shot that they need to find out about or a vet QB that has played well for a year in denver followed by a really bad year.

It's simple...they wanted to see what they had in Kizer...if he could prove himself well at the job he was a more long term solution when Cody was not.

Practice reps mattered when your not a pro bowl type guy...the offense didn't move with Cody and he had a worrying amount of redzone INTs and 4 I think in the endzone.

I wish they would've started Cody the first 5-8games while they tried to get Kizer ready, and I argued for just that all offseason and made specific posts that "Kizer was not ready  don't forget people" but it does make some sense why they went his way instead given a particular mindset.

[ditchdigger]

4 hours ago, LETSGOBROWNIES said:

No, you haven't answered anything, you've just continued to show you haven't bothered to even form a complete thought about the issue before endlessly complaining.

You want to endlessly argue that "someone" will do "something" better.  You're making an idiotic argument that we should fire a guy for not being able win with a roster that no coach should be expected from to win with at this stage. Youngest roster in the league, 21 year old rookie qb, new defensive coordinator and new defensive scheme, ect.

You keep talking about how we should be seeing improvement in year 2.  Year two for who? The rookie qb? Nope? 40% of the OL? The entire receiving corp? Nope. Half of the DL? Nope. The entire starting secondary? Nope. Hell, the entire defense is learning a new scheme (again).

The fact that you think Jimmy Haslam potentially firing a coach somehow strengthens your point is laughable. It's literally the only thing he's managed to do as an owner while leading this franchise to all time lows but this lays at Hue's feet? Ok...

The same people argue every year "there's no point in having continuity just for the sake of continuity..." But that's literally the only thing we haven't yet tried under this owner.

I'll continue to read your asinine posts, ask you to explain the absurd, underdeveloped opinion and if you don't like that, feel free to use the ignore feature yourself. 

Only one poster has earned the right to be blocked by me, and you can't touch his belligerence no matter how hard you try.

My *** is a 9? The squats are working then.

[Thomas5737]

1 hour ago, Mind Character said:

the offense didn't move with Cody and he had a worrying amount of redzone INTs and 4 I think in the endzone.

How many did he have last year? How many did he have in this years preseason games? I'm a terrible practice player so I hate that when you actually get to show what you can do in an actual game that it gets nullified by practice. Wanna know how many interceptions I have thrown in practice this year, and we have only had 2 or 3 practices? I have no idea but probably 7 or 8. In 3 games? 1 and it was a 4th and 20 play right before the half.

[Mind Character]

Just now, Thomas5737 said:

How many did he have last year? How many did he have in this years preseason games? I'm a terrible practice player so I hate that when you actually get to show what you can do in an actual game that it gets nullified by practice. Wanna know how many interceptions I have thrown in practice this year, and we have only had 2 or 3 practices? I have no idea but probably 7 or 8. In 3 games? 1 and it was a 4th and 20 play right before the half.

Man...come on...

Cody played well under duress with no help last year and no OLine.

BUT if you've ever played sports you know that practice matters especially if there are multiple players at your position in which you all take the same reps in succession.

If for some reason after 2 months of practices, you look worse in similar; 1 to 1 reps as 2 other players....you're at risk of losing the top spot especially if your incumbency is not necessarily based on amazing QB1 franchise upside play.

The entire team and the coaches watch the reps...they talk about it after practice and via texts.

You have to keep some version of a meritocracy before the season and rep to rep based on a plurality of reporting Cody struggled mightily compared to the others.

Not that he struggled some but that it was really bad and not just one day but over the course of weeks of practice.

In that context, no matter how much I wished Cody would start....it does make sense to me why the coaches may have given their 2nd round high upside QB a shot to prove the wrong.

It's not that crazy

[Thomas5737]

3 minutes ago, Mind Character said:

Man...come on...

Cody played well under duress with no help last year and no OLine.

BUT if you've ever played sports you know that practice matters especially if there are multiple players at your position in which you all take the same reps in succession.

If for some reason after 2 months of practices, you look worse in similar; 1 to 1 reps as 2 other players....you're at risk of losing the top spot especially if your incumbency is not necessarily based on amazing QB1 franchise upside play.

The entire team and the coaches watch the reps...they talk about it after practice and via texts.

You have to keep some version of a meritocracy before the season and rep to rep based on a plurality of reporting Cody struggled mightily compared to the others.

Not that he struggled some but that it was really bad and not just one day but over the course of weeks of practice.

In that context, no matter how much I wished Cody would start....it does make sense to me why the coaches may have given their 2nd round high upside QB a shot to prove the wrong.

It's not that crazy

So 3 days of mini camp in June and then camp opens July 27th and the first preseason game is 14 days later and that equals 2 months of bad practice that he loses his job to Brock?

If practice mattered Brock would still be starting for us. I think games matter more. Brock completed 59% of his passes last year, Kessler 67%. Brock averaged 5.8 yards per pass, Kessler 7.1. Both had a 3.1 TD percentage, Kessler had had a 1.0 INT percentage, Brock was 3.1. Obviously Kessler had a much better rating with a lesser supporting cast. But hey, 2 weeks of practice and Brock gets 1st team reps in preseason.

Still, Brock's bad season last year is much better than what we have seen at QB for the Browns this year. Supporting cast I guess, still doesn't explain why Kessler was better in games than he was. It's just so confusing to why a QB who practices poorly but plays well in games is inactive while the guys who practice well but struggle in games gets the nod week after week. Unless we don't care about trying to win but then that brings much bigger issues to the table.

[Kiwibrown]

36 minutes ago, Thomas5737 said:

So 3 days of mini camp in June and then camp opens July 27th and the first preseason game is 14 days later and that equals 2 months of bad practice that he loses his job to Brock?

If practice mattered Brock would still be starting for us. I think games matter more. Brock completed 59% of his passes last year, Kessler 67%. Brock averaged 5.8 yards per pass, Kessler 7.1. Both had a 3.1 TD percentage, Kessler had had a 1.0 INT percentage, Brock was 3.1. Obviously Kessler had a much better rating with a lesser supporting cast. But hey, 2 weeks of practice and Brock gets 1st team reps in preseason.

Still, Brock's bad season last year is much better than what we have seen at QB for the Browns this year. Supporting cast I guess, still doesn't explain why Kessler was better in games than he was. It's just so confusing to why a QB who practices poorly but plays well in games is inactive while the guys who practice well but struggle in games gets the nod week after week. Unless we don't care about trying to win but then that brings much bigger issues to the table.

Unfortunaetly for cody and us Hue plays long ball and that is explicitly Codys weakness. I would prefer we adapted our offense to incorporate not only short throws but also ones that work people open. 
I would prefer this to endless seam routes.