NFL admits to botched call in Saints Texans game

[FrantikRam]

4 minutes ago, Elky said:

If I'm the Saints I wouldn't trust the league at all. It seems like the league has an agenda against the Saints.

 

I know, right? Look at what the league has done to the Saints:

First, the Minneapolis Miracle - the way the league office threw the ball, caught it and made the Saints defender whiff was collusion the likes of which I've never seen

Second, the way the league office went down the field in the NFCCG down 23-20 and tied it - then forced a turnover and got into position for a game winning FG - great work by the NFL on that one

Then finally, that two play scoring drive by the league office on Monday night to take the lead 28-27 - just unbelievable plays by the NFL

 

Sure, the no call was bad. The time issue was bad. But so were the Saints in those games - nobody seems to want to talk about that though.

[tyler735]

3 hours ago, FrantikRam said:

 

I know, right? Look at what the league has done to the Saints:

First, the Minneapolis Miracle - the way the league office threw the ball, caught it and made the Saints defender whiff was collusion the likes of which I've never seen

Crap defense by Marcus Williams cost us the game. Nothing more there.

3 hours ago, FrantikRam said:

Second, the way the league office went down the field in the NFCCG down 23-20 and tied it - then forced a turnover and got into position for a game winning FG - great work by the NFL on that one

Blatant blown call played huge role in us losing the game, and said blown call has played a large role in new rules being implemented, which highlights the significance of said blown call. 

3 hours ago, FrantikRam said:

Then finally, that two play scoring drive by the league office on Monday night to take the lead 28-27 - just unbelievable plays by the NFL

Significant reffing error that should never happen in a game likely cost the Saints points and could have played a role in the final outcome.

3 hours ago, FrantikRam said:

 

Sure, the no call was bad. The time issue was bad. But so were the Saints in those games - nobody seems to want to talk about that though.

Considering the Saints were in these games up until the final seconds of the game in each of these scenario's, I don't think calling the saints "bad" is the correct answer. Sure they "could have" won these games despite blown calls, but errors of that magnitude in the last 2 examples you mentioned shouldn't happen as they can be the difference between a win and loss.

[Magnifico]

4 hours ago, FrantikRam said:

Sure, the no call was bad. The time issue was bad. But so were the Saints in those games - nobody seems to want to talk about that though.

Do you define every "close" game the Rams are in as the Rams being bad? I'd argue having watched both games in the full the Rams were much more "bad" on Sunday than the Saints were on Monday. In reality, both teams faced opposition who weren't a sloppy and unprepared mess like most of the league was on Sunday. However given you've already admitted to disliking the Saints maybe your just biased in this instance? 

I haven't seen many Saints fans in this thread point the finger solely at the refs for Monday, just that the league should do better. Given what happened in the NFCCG they can.

There are enough stoppages in the NFL game (unlike say Basketball or Soccer which both have Video Refs now) for stuff like this to be verified and checked particularly in the last 2 minutes, if not always. The argument from earlier in the thread about "perfection is unattainable" is silly. The league has the means and the technology to ensure this and the call in the Chargers/Colts game doesn't happen and affects games to a smaller extent. You can't get perfection, but you can always strive to do better.

It's 2019, time shouldn't be lost from the gameclock because the Refs aren't doing their job correctly here.

Edited September 11, 2019 by Magnifico

[FrantikRam]

1 hour ago, tyler735 said:

Crap defense by Marcus Williams cost us the game. Nothing more there.

Blatant blown call played huge role in us losing the game, and said blown call has played a large role in new rules being implemented, which highlights the significance of said blown call. 

Significant reffing error that should never happen in a game likely cost the Saints points and could have played a role in the final outcome.

Considering the Saints were in these games up until the final seconds of the game in each of these scenario's, I don't think calling the saints "bad" is the correct answer. Sure they "could have" won these games despite blown calls, but errors of that magnitude in the last 2 examples you mentioned shouldn't happen as they can be the difference between a win and loss.

 

 

The problem with going that route for the NFCCG is that there were other blatant blown calls. So many Saints fans think there's some kind of conspiracy which is insane because, again, there were other blown calls in the game. Just talking about the timing of the call is similar to an NBA team complaining about not getting a foul call late in a game when there were other missed fouls - it's a slippery slope.

I have no problem with people being upset over the blown call - what I take issue with is people acting like that's the only reason the Saints lost. Then when I think about how the Saints had a similar thing happen in their favor in 2009, it almost seems like Saints fans should be calling it even and moving on.

 

For the clock issue in this game - that's a worse one - but if this happened to the Rams, I'd be upset with McVay for not stopping the game and telling the refs about the mistake too.

[FrantikRam]

37 minutes ago, Magnifico said:

Do you define every "close" game the Rams are in as the Rams being bad? I'd argue having watched both games in the full the Rams were much more "bad" on Sunday than the Saints were on Monday. In reality, both teams faced opposition who weren't a sloppy and unprepared mess like most of the league was on Sunday. However given you've already admitted to disliking the Saints maybe your just biased in this instance? 

I haven't seen many Saints fans in this thread point the finger solely at the refs for Monday, just that the league should do better. Given what happened in the NFCCG they can.

There are enough stoppages in the NFL game (unlike say Basketball or Soccer which both have Video Refs now) for stuff like this to be verified and checked particularly in the last 2 minutes, if not always. The argument from earlier in the thread about "perfection is unattainable" is silly. The league has the means and the technology to ensure this and the call in the Chargers/Colts game doesn't happen and affects games to a smaller extent. You can't get perfection, but you can always strive to do better.

It's 2019, time shouldn't be lost from the gameclock because the Refs aren't doing their job correctly here.

 

If I admit to disliking the Saints, and someone else admits to liking them, that means we're both biased, right? Which would mean my opinion would be as valid as a Saints fan's opinion.

No reason to stop at the NFCCG - the Steelers/Saints game last year was bad too, and it cost the Steelers a playoff spot. Saints and Vikings NFCCG 10 years ago too. Countless other examples throughout history - they're human, it happens. And hey, look at those two examples - it's happened in favor of the Saints too. Like I said, it happens.

The timing issue is different - that definitely should not happen.

Do I define every close game the Rams are in as the Rams being bad? That's not what I meant. If you're asking: if the Rams were up 23-20 late in a game and the defense blew it, would I say the Rams were bad - yes, definitely, and I'd be far more upset with them than the officials.

 

Again, I have no issue with people being upset with the no call - it was bad, and it played a part in the Saints losing. If their fans reacted differently, I would have felt bad for them - but for them to ignore that they've been on the other side of that makes zero sense.

 

[Jlowe22]

40 minutes ago, FrantikRam said:

 

If I admit to disliking the Saints, and someone else admits to liking them, that means we're both biased, right? Which would mean my opinion would be as valid as a Saints fan's opinion.

No reason to stop at the NFCCG - the Steelers/Saints game last year was bad too, and it cost the Steelers a playoff spot. Saints and Vikings NFCCG 10 years ago too. Countless other examples throughout history - they're human, it happens. And hey, look at those two examples - it's happened in favor of the Saints too. Like I said, it happens.

The timing issue is different - that definitely should not happen.

Do I define every close game the Rams are in as the Rams being bad? That's not what I meant. If you're asking: if the Rams were up 23-20 late in a game and the defense blew it, would I say the Rams were bad - yes, definitely, and I'd be far more upset with them than the officials.

 

Again, I have no issue with people being upset with the no call - it was bad, and it played a part in the Saints losing. If their fans reacted differently, I would have felt bad for them - but for them to ignore that they've been on the other side of that makes zero sense.

 

Rams fans had been whining about the refs all season.  That specific crew in fact.  If that call had gone the other way, they’d still be whining about it.

But that call had nothing to do with this one.  This wasn’t a bang bang play, this was something they got no business getting wrong.  

And the guy in here that brought up conspiracy isn’t even a Saints fan.

[theJ]

14 hours ago, Dome said:

If it's attainable, why wouldn't you?

I really just want improvement where it's possible.

This is the first time i can remember seeing something like this.  It's rare.  It would be hard to actually measure "better" in this scenario given how rare it is.  

I'd question whether hiring a guy makes this better even.  You're basically proposing that we should eliminate a human mistake by hiring another human...who makes mistakes.

I'm with @LeotheLion, i don't think throwing money at this thing is the right solution or makes it better.  This is the kind of thing you should expect with a human refereed game.

 

Also, IMO, the guy responsible for catching this is the coach.  He's paid, and part of his job is to keep communication with the referees.  And in this case, he could have asked them to review the clock when he saw something was off.

[Dome]

23 minutes ago, theJ said:

I'd question whether hiring a guy makes this better even.  You're basically proposing that we should eliminate a human mistake by hiring another human...who makes mistakes.

Quality control is a thing, you know. More eyes on it isn’t a bad thing when you’re just looking to make sure protocol is being followed.

I disagree that this is the type of thing fans should expect in a human refereed game. Bang-bang calls and judgment calls you can expect to disagree with, procedural stuff you should be able to rely on them to get right.

Edited September 11, 2019 by Dome

[Dome]

13 minutes ago, theJ said:

Also, IMO, the guy responsible for catching this is the coach. 

Sean Payton and Drew Brees and half the offense were yelling at the refs about it.

Edit: not to mention, I totally disagree anyways. Coaches are managing their team, they should be able to rely on refs to know the rules 

Edited September 11, 2019 by Dome

[tyler735]

1 hour ago, FrantikRam said:

 

 

The problem with going that route for the NFCCG is that there were other blatant blown calls. So many Saints fans think there's some kind of conspiracy which is insane because, again, there were other blown calls in the game. Just talking about the timing of the call is similar to an NBA team complaining about not getting a foul call late in a game when there were other missed fouls - it's a slippery slope.

There are plays that "could" be called a penalty, and then there are absolutely blatant missed calls. I'd put it like this. Were there any other missed calls in that NFCCG that led to a rule change this year? If a missed call is so egregious that it cause the NFL to change rules the following season, it is safe to say there is legitimate reason for the team that got screwed by that call to be upset. I don't believe there is a conspiracy against the Saints (ironically enough many Rams fans felt there was a conspiracy against them with that reffing group though- If I'm not mistaken there was a petition getting signed by Rams fans to have a different ref crew for the game).

Quote

I have no problem with people being upset over the blown call - what I take issue with is people acting like that's the only reason the Saints lost. Then when I think about how the Saints had a similar thing happen in their favor in 2009, it almost seems like Saints fans should be calling it even and moving on.

Yeah I don't think any Saints fan thinks it's "the only" reason we lost, but it is certainly the most significant reason why we lost. I'm not denying that we have had some fortunate calls go our way at times much like any team really, but it's incredibly rare for a single call to cause the NFL to immediately change its rules is it not?

Quote

 

For the clock issue in this game - that's a worse one - but if this happened to the Rams, I'd be upset with McVay for not stopping the game and telling the refs about the mistake too.

They are both bad for different reasons. Sean Payton and Brees were screaming at the ref as it was happening. This isn't on the Saints this is 100% on the refs messing up the clock.

Edited September 11, 2019 by tyler735

[FrantikRam]

15 minutes ago, Jlowe22 said:

Rams fans had been whining about the refs all season.  That specific crew in fact.  If that call had gone the other way, they’d still be whining about it.

But that call had nothing to do with this one.  This wasn’t a bang bang play, this was something they got no business getting wrong.  

And the guy in here that brought up conspiracy isn’t even a Saints fan.

 

*Some Rams fans* had been whining about that crew all season - just a few on this board really. Unfortunately it hasn't been just some Saints fans whining about the no call.

I agree with your second point - definitely not something they should have gotten wrong.

As for the conspiracy - I didn't mean that specific to this board - I've seen that brought up time and time again by random Saints fans all over the place (i.e. the NFL wanted the LA team in the Super Bowl). And again, specific to the NFCCG, I have no problem with people being upset - I was upset about the Patriots mugging out WRs in Super Bowl 36 and not getting called for it - but I was able to move on from that. I'd have thought that somewhere I would have seen at least a few Saints fans say "well we did get the benefit of the whistle against the Vikings in 2009", but for some reason that seems to be missing. Blown calls like that balance out - Rams fans feel like we got hosed in Super Bowl 36, Vikings fans feel like they got hosed in 2009, Saints fans feel like they got hosed last year, at some point the Vikings will get a lucky break from officials - it goes around and comes around.

I don't even really mind that PI is reviewable because of it - when the Patriots did the same thing to Manning that they did to us, the Colts complained to the league office and this new era of football began with the "emphasis" on illegal contact - but people need to realize that this really isn't different than that 2009 NFCCG. Stuff like this happens and teams either overcome or they don't - the Saints still had chances.

[Dome]

Where are you running into these fanatical saints fans that think the NFL is rigged? Like they’re everywhere, but I just am not seeing them?

I browse quite a few Saints websites and comment sections. I just don’t see it outside of a random nutjob who everyone then piles on for being a loon. Every fan base has those guys.

[FrantikRam]

1 minute ago, tyler735 said:

There are plays that "could" be called a penalty, and then there are absolutely blatant missed calls. I'd put it like this. Were there any other missed calls in that NFCCG that led to a rule change this year? If a missed call is so egregious that it cause the NFL to change rules the following season, it is safe to say there is legitimate reason for the team that got screwed by that call to be upset. I don't believe there is a conspiracy against the Saints (ironically enough many Rams fans felt there was a conspiracy against them with that reffing group though).

Yeah I don't think any Saints fan thinks it's "the only" reason we lost, but it is certainly the most significant reason why we lost. I'm not denying that we have had some fortunate calls go our way at times much like any team really, but it's incredibly rare for a single call to cause the NFL to immediately change its rules is it not?

They are both bad for different reasons. Sean Payton and Brees were screaming at the ref as it was happening. This isn't on the Saints this is 100% on the refs messing up the clock.

 

Saints and Steelers, last year - Saints got two PI calls that shouldn't have been PI and it cost the Steelers the game. And in 2009, there are detailed accounts of how the officials were biased toward the Saints.

Do you think these were somehow not as bad as the no call? I get that neither sparked a rule change (although the Steelers/Saints game may have helped), but social media today probably adds pressure with how many people were talking about it.

And yea, the "most significant reason we lost" is what rubs me the wrong way. Let's say that there's no PI and the pass was incomplete, Saints kick a FG and they're up 23-20 - Saints fans talked up their defense quite a bit last year. If the non call was the most significant reason the Saints lost, it feels to me that's acknowledging the Rams were the better team. The Saints had a 70% chance to win the game once that FG went through the uprights. I guess another way I look at it is like this: regardless of what transpired beforehand, if one team is up 23-20 with about 100 seconds left, I'm comfortable saying that whoever wins that game is the better team.

The other thing that really bugs me about the no call is that, regardless of what Sean Payton says, that wouldn't have ended the game. Let's say PI was called - first and goal with 1:45 left and the Rams have one time out. One of two things transpire:

First - Saints run the ball and it's pretty likely the Rams let them score - and, as Payton said, he wanted 7 - plus, that pass they threw on 3rd and 10 was trying to score a TD - so I think this is reasonable. In this case, obviously, the game is not over and based on how the Rams were moving the ball, entirely possible that the game still goes to OT if the Rams knew they needed 7.

Second - Saints knee three times and kick a FG:

first knee - timeout Rams - 1:43 remaining

second knee - takes 2 seconds and 40 for playclock

third knee - snapped at 1:01

Timeout Saints at 19 seconds

FG try - 4 seconds

Assuming a touchback - Rams ball on the 25 with 15 seconds - Zuerleins kick in OT would have been good from almost 70, so to try a desperation tying FG attempt the Rams would have needed 25-30 yards in 15 seconds - that's doable. So even if that PI had been called, the game wouldn't have been over.

 

Also, in the early days of the Patriots dynasty, they used to mug WRs left and right - Manning and the Colts complained about it and it led to the NFL "emphasizing" illegal contact - but nobody talks about the Patriots as if they did something wrong - and yet, there was a rule change - or rather, tweak - because of how they played.

[FrantikRam]

7 minutes ago, Dome said:

Where are you running into these fanatical saints fans that think the NFL is rigged? Like they’re everywhere, but I just am not seeing them?

I browse quite a few Saints websites and comment sections. I just don’t see it outside of a random nutjob who everyone then piles on for being a loon. Every fan base has those guys.

 

The sheer amount of Saints fans who wanted the lawsuit was a bad look given that 2009 NFCCG.

But mostly Saintsreport.com

[FrantikRam]

12 minutes ago, Dome said:

Where are you running into these fanatical saints fans that think the NFL is rigged? Like they’re everywhere, but I just am not seeing them?

I browse quite a few Saints websites and comment sections. I just don’t see it outside of a random nutjob who everyone then piles on for being a loon. Every fan base has those guys.

 

And to be fair, I'm probably exaggerating. 

The no call situation was not fun for me. Everywhere I looked this offseason there was something about that call. Between the lawsuit, Sean Payton and some Saints fans - which I'm feeling a little bad about right now, because the three I'm talking to in here seem cool - I won't be satisfied with anything but a 30 point win on Sunday.