General News and Notes

[.Buzz]

7 minutes ago, JaguarCrazy2832 said:

Going in with Cam as our best LT means we’ll be in trouble

Idk if I agree.

Cam as a rookie was promising, then the ACL popped up and last year was his first year off it/missed all the off-season last year working back to being healthy.

I'd prefer to get someone else sure, but it's not an absolute must for me. 

On the other hand, I do want an OT to push him/interior OL help. The unit does need better/depth and imo a new starter at RG, but I don't think a LT at 9 is a must and I also don't think you're getting a shoe in starter after the top 4 guys are gone.

[LinderFournette]

55 minutes ago, .Buzz said:

Idk if I agree.

Cam as a rookie was promising, then the ACL popped up and last year was his first year off it/missed all the off-season last year working back to being healthy.

I'd prefer to get someone else sure, but it's not an absolute must for me. 

On the other hand, I do want an OT to push him/interior OL help. The unit does need better/depth and imo a new starter at RG, but I don't think a LT at 9 is a must and I also don't think you're getting a shoe in starter after the top 4 guys are gone.

A pressure rate of 9 is considered promising?

[.Buzz]

5 minutes ago, LinderFournette said:

A pressure rate of 9 is considered promising?

He had his lumps. I'm not saying he was a stud.

But yes, after year 1 I felt like Cam had a shot to be a long term LT with improving his technique and continued development. 

I know it's hard for you to believe a guy after 1 year can get better (you said Chark was toast after his rookie year and), but they can.

 

[.Buzz]

I'm not as bullish on rookies. If I see traits I like in guys and overall see reason for optimism/they're super young and raw, I'm not going to go on rants listing guys as not being the answers or busts.

You've said the same thing with Taylor and point to penalties and sacks given up acting as if that can't be cleaned up or he can't be a long term fixture because of that.

I saw Taylor improve greatly as the season went on and hold his own versus some elite veteran pass rushers. Acting like a guy as a rookie should come in and not have his growing pains is just setting you up for disappointment. Sorry, but Cam Jordon, Von Miller, JJ Watt, etc. are going to get their's... especially against a rookie OT.

Leon Searcy talked on 1010 that he doesn't see there being anyway Cam could kick inside because of his slender lower body. Who knows if he's correct, but if you do take an OT you also may he essentially kicking him to a swing tackle role and still needing a guard.

 

[pwny]

This just kinda seems like the same argument that was had over Luke Joeckel. He was bad a lot, but showed some promising things as a rookie that you hope he can build on. Then gets injured and misses a bunch of time with the recovery; Joeckel’s was after his first game shifting to LT, Cam’s his second game of his sophomore year. He comes back and isn’t good again, but is given a pass because of his injury derailing a season and offseason.

I think it’s fair to understand that players can develop and expecting a rookie to be a polished product is silly, but we need to see a lot better performance out of the LT spot than Cam has given across his 3 seasons/31 games in the league. And after three seasons of growth and nearly two full seasons of play, it’s understandable for someone to believe that Cam just isn’t it.

[.Buzz]

4 minutes ago, pwny said:

This just kinda seems like the same argument that was had over Luke Joeckel. He was bad a lot, but showed some promising things as a rookie that you hope he can build on. Then gets injured and misses a bunch of time with the recovery; Joeckel’s was after his first game shifting to LT, Cam’s his second game of his sophomore year. He comes back and isn’t good again, but is given a pass because of his injury derailing a season and offseason.

I think it’s fair to understand that players can develop and expecting a rookie to be a polished product is silly, but we need to see a lot better performance out of the LT spot than Cam has given across his 3 seasons/31 games in the league. And after three seasons of growth and nearly two full seasons of play, it’s understandable for someone to believe that Cam just isn’t it.

I don't think he is it personally, fwiw. 

[pwny]

I will say that even though I think we need a new LT and that finding one should be a priority, the gap between Cam’s play and a starting quality LT is probably smaller than the gap between the players we currently have slated to play RE, DT (both slots), FS, CB1, WR1 (assuming you slot Chark at WR2), and probably RG and the same *quality starter threshold* that you’d place at those spots.

So I get why some wouldn’t put that spot as the focus for our pick at 1.9. Ultimately we have a lot of holes, and enough that even with all our premium and higher round selections, we’re just not feasibly going to address every position, let alone address it with the type of player that can find success at their role.

[.Buzz]

13 minutes ago, pwny said:

I will say that even though I think we need a new LT and that finding one should be a priority, the gap between Cam’s play and a starting quality LT is probably smaller than the gap between the players we currently have slated to play RE, DT (both slots), FS, CB1, WR1 (assuming you slot Chark at WR2), and probably RG and the same *quality starter threshold* that you’d place at those spots.

So I get why some wouldn’t put that spot as the focus for our pick at 1.9. Ultimately we have a lot of holes, and enough that even with all our premium and higher round selections, we’re just not feasibly going to address every position, let alone address it with the type of player that can find success at their role.

How does your rankings at 9 go as far as who you'd be happy/ok/upset with (if you have one)?

[pwny]

8 minutes ago, .Buzz said:

How does your rankings at 9 go as far as who you'd be happy/ok/upset with (if you have one)?

I haven’t been following as much as I normally do, so the actual list of players I have is based on incomplete data and trusting other sources more that I would ever do normally.

 

But a rough guess of players I assume would make a list that I’d be okay with if *I* was in charge:

Tua (but don’t give Dave the ability to do this, he’s botched enough and I’m not sure I trust being able to draft someone like that without extensive medical info)

Okudah

Jeudy

Lamb

Brown

Henderson

I haven’t looked at any of the LTs at all, but I guess whichever one(s) someone wants to tell me are can’t miss.

[.Buzz]

10 minutes ago, pwny said:

I haven’t been following as much as I normally do, so the actual list of players I have is based on incomplete data and trusting other sources more that I would ever do normally.

 

But a rough guess of players I assume would make a list that I’d be okay with if *I* was in charge:

Tua (but don’t give Dave the ability to do this, he’s botched enough and I’m not sure I trust being able to draft someone like that without extensive medical info)

Okudah

Jeudy

Lamb

Brown

Henderson

I haven’t looked at any of the LTs at all, but I guess whichever one(s) someone wants to tell me are can’t miss.

Think that's a pretty fair list for where I'm at now without the OT's as well.

All the OT's are legitimately very good prospects imo. Becton and Wirfs are more the freak athlete with tremendous upside types. Wirfs played RT at Iowa though and some project him to guard, but I think he can transition smoothly to LT. 

Thomas is the safest LT prospect I'd say. Highest floor, but not quite the upside of the rest. Day 1 plug him in and you don't have to worry.

Wills I seem to be lower on then most, a lot view him as the best OT in the draft but I'm just not as sold on him moving from RT to LT. Immensely talented, but I'm projecting these guys all as LT since that's where we need help.

Becton/Wirfs/Thomas/Wills is probably my personal ranking, although at the top it's 1a/1b. All would be worthy at 9 though.

[Tugboat]

16 hours ago, .Buzz said:

Gah this would be such a great fit with Yann oppo Allen.

Wonder if they really target an edge sooner then we think, especially if this Ngakoue deal gets done.

I'm just not even sure who they'd target as an edge rusher, "earlier than we think"?  There's just nothing there.  Chase Young will be long gone.  After that...it's basically bad, and hard to really see spending a 1st one anyone, unless you fully buy into Chaisson's "upside".  But the desperately weak class means you're probably doing that at 9...or moving up from 20.  He won't make it that far in a drought.

 

Honestly...that kind of quote from Marrone almost makes it sound like they're stubbornly sticking to the idea that Yan is still going to be a part of this team.  Which would be awesome.  Just feels more likely to be a complete an utter mess.  Beyond that...i'm not even really sure what they'd be talking about, in terms of "getting more guys on the field".  Unless they're just talking about trying to get more of our depth caliber 3T/5T tweeners on the field at the same time.  lol.

 

14 hours ago, JaguarCrazy2832 said:

Going in with Cam as our best LT means we’ll be in trouble

Yeah.  I can see how they'd talk themselves into it given the many holes to plug and limited resources to do it.  But you just can't do it.  You can't expect someone to do something they've done 30+ games proving they can't really do.

[Tugboat]

6 hours ago, pwny said:

I will say that even though I think we need a new LT and that finding one should be a priority, the gap between Cam’s play and a starting quality LT is probably smaller than the gap between the players we currently have slated to play RE, DT (both slots), FS, CB1, WR1 (assuming you slot Chark at WR2), and probably RG and the same *quality starter threshold* that you’d place at those spots.

So I get why some wouldn’t put that spot as the focus for our pick at 1.9. Ultimately we have a lot of holes, and enough that even with all our premium and higher round selections, we’re just not feasibly going to address every position, let alone address it with the type of player that can find success at their role.

That may be fair.  Right now, our DLine is a complete joke.  It will get beaten up on all over the place, and our secondary is also a mess.  That's a recipe for a tissue paper defense...significantly worse than our poorly performing defense from last year.  That's not great.

Given the multitude of gaping holes all over this roster, and only so many top picks to spend on fixing things...obviously going to have to compromise somewhere.

 

But i think ultimately, it comes down to whether you want to just waste the year and draft a QB next year.  Or whether you're actually remotely serious about putting Minshew in a position to prove whether or not he can be "The Guy" for us.  If it's the latter...you absolutely have to improve the offensive supporting cast.  Which has to include some substantial improvement on the OLine and specifically at the cornerstone LT spot, with better skill position weapons in the passing game as well.

If it's the former...i'm honestly going to have a really hard time finding reasons to bother watching many games this year.

[Tugboat]

5 hours ago, .Buzz said:

Think that's a pretty fair list for where I'm at now without the OT's as well.

All the OT's are legitimately very good prospects imo. Becton and Wirfs are more the freak athlete with tremendous upside types. Wirfs played RT at Iowa though and some project him to guard, but I think he can transition smoothly to LT. 

Thomas is the safest LT prospect I'd say. Highest floor, but not quite the upside of the rest. Day 1 plug him in and you don't have to worry.

Wills I seem to be lower on then most, a lot view him as the best OT in the draft but I'm just not as sold on him moving from RT to LT. Immensely talented, but I'm projecting these guys all as LT since that's where we need help.

Becton/Wirfs/Thomas/Wills is probably my personal ranking, although at the top it's 1a/1b. All would be worthy at 9 though.

It really does run the gamut in terms of the OTs this year.  Lots of really good prospects...but it's kinda wild the way it all shakes out, and the ranges of opinions on them all.  As good as the prospects are...i'm not sure there's really a truly "can't miss LT" among them.

 

Becton is very much the opposite of what @pwny is talking about as the "can't miss" prospect.  If he doesn't make it, he's not going to kick inside and he's going to end up one of those endless retread "reclamation projects" where 5 different coaching regimes think maybe they will be the ones talented enough to unlock his potential.  But at the same time...i think you could argue he has the best chance of becoming that true, "Franchise LT" cornerstone who is more than, "good enough".  But it's a big swing...

 

Wills is the guy i'd call the closest to a "can't miss".  He's just so polished and complete, with a very solid athletic profile...it's hard to see him not at least ending up locking down a long-term spot as an NFL OT.  It's just a question of whether he'll be able to do it as a LT, because he hasn't had the chance to put it on tape.  Kinda reminds me of the Joeckel/Matthews thing at Texas A&M back in the day...with Wills being more the Matthews.  But Wills didn't get that year to really "prove it", and with an offense originally built backwards around a Lefty QB.  I just see him as the safest bet to be "good enough" at LT, in pass pro particularly.  Still not a slam dunk.

 

Thomas is "safe" in some ways...with a long resume as a successful college LT.  But he's also got some similar elements in profile to Cam Robinson, in terms of how he projects to the next level.  Don't really worry about him in the run game, but as a pass protector...plenty solid at the collegiate level, but with caveats projecting to the NFL level.  The biggest factor for me, is just how much insulation he got a lot of the time, via scheme, and also just via extra blocking help flanking him.  Like...vs a premier NFL caliber pass rush talent like our own Josh Allen the year before this, there are so few reps where you really see him on an island against him.  Just not sold on how he'll consistently hold up against the speed of top NFL pass rushers alone on the edge as a LT.  But feels "safe" in the same way Cam Robinson felt very "can't miss" as a prospect.  Just probably a "rich man's" version of that.  Is that enough?

 

And Wirfs is just...a different animal.  Crazy range of opinions on him, from "best LT in the draft" to "RT only" to "kicks inside like Scherff".  I think he's in that sort of "can't miss" prospect category...but as an OLine prospect, rather than as a LT prospect.  With that kinda freaky athletic profile and demeanor...He'll play somewhere for a long time.  I just have a hard time envisioning him as a franchise LT when he's shown the sort of issues he has at RT in college.  Just feels like a guy who ultimately ends up playing inside, with a handy ability to kick outside in a desperate pinch.  But the tools all seem to be there, more or less...so who knows?  Furthest thing from a "can't miss LT"...but probably closest to a "can't miss OLineman".

 

 

And then there's the smorgasbord of various "project types" to suit all tastes.  I've started to come around to the idea of just picking up someone like Josh Jones/Cleveland/Niang at some later point and hoping they're ready to step in by the time Cam proves he hasn't magically become the LT solution.  But the top guys in this draft all have lots of upside, at a position of real need.  It's tough...

 

 

[JaguarCrazy2832]

8 hours ago, pwny said:

I haven’t been following as much as I normally do, so the actual list of players I have is based on incomplete data and trusting other sources more that I would ever do normally.

 

But a rough guess of players I assume would make a list that I’d be okay with if *I* was in charge:

Tua (but don’t give Dave the ability to do this, he’s botched enough and I’m not sure I trust being able to draft someone like that without extensive medical info)

Okudah

Jeudy

Lamb

Brown

Henderson

I haven’t looked at any of the LTs at all, but I guess whichever one(s) someone wants to tell me are can’t miss.

assuming Burrow, Young and Simmons are gone?

[pwny]

5 hours ago, JaguarCrazy2832 said:

assuming Burrow, Young and Simmons are gone?

I don’t think I’ve seen a single mock not have those three go top 5, so I kept them all off. But yeah, if somehow Burrow makes it to 9, my “Dave isn’t allowed to draft a QB” rule goes out the window.