Would you pull Floyd's option?

[AZBearsFan]

I’m on the record saying I’d pull it and try to negotiate a deal with him at a reasonable amount for what he provides. 2 guys can provide what Floyd provides for significantly less. If he leaves after rescinding the tag he’s not a cut he’s a lost FA and goes into the comp pick formula for the 2021 draft. 

It’s noteworthy to me that Floyd was not drafted for Pagano’s version of the defense too. Pagano’s 2011 Ravens D, the one he oversaw in leading to him get the Colts HC gig, had Suggs in the Mack role and a hodge podge of Pernell McPhee, Jarret Johnson and Paul Kruger opposite him, with a far less dynamic in coverage 36-year old Ray Lewis where we have Roquan. Fangio’s version of the 3-4 in Denver did just fine with no coverage specialist OLB with Von and Chubb coming off the edge (before Chubb’s injury). Floyd being better in space than most 3-4 OLB is great, but IMO there’s also a reason most 3-4 teams don’t have a guy who is that good in coverage at that spot - because from that position getting to the QB is far more valuable. 

As I’ve been saying for weeks - it’s not that Floyd is a bad player. He’s not. But we can do better for that cost and should strive for that. Dee Ford got 5/85 with $33M+ guaranteed last offseason from SF and his cap hit in year 1 was just $1.2M over what we owe Floyd for 2020. Who’s taking Floyd over Ford? And that’s the top of the market. Preston and Z’Darius Smith had a $13.25M cap hit combined in year 1 of their deals in GB last year despite having a combined AAV of nearly $30M over the lives of their collective contracts. 

[The_Romen]

9 hours ago, AZBearsFan said:

As I’ve been saying for weeks - it’s not that Floyd is a bad player. He’s not. But we can do better for that cost and should strive for that. Dee Ford got 5/85 with $33M+ guaranteed last offseason from SF and his cap hit in year 1 was just $1.2M over what we owe Floyd for 2020. Who’s taking Floyd over Ford? And that’s the top of the market. Preston and Z’Darius Smith had a $13.25M cap hit combined in year 1 of their deals in GB last year despite having a combined AAV of nearly $30M over the lives of their collective contracts. 

Who is going on the open market that's a better player than Floyd? Do you just address the pass rush and do the GB move and get two bargain EDGE rushers, hope they can be enough to keep the pressure off Mack and come in and relieve him?

I don't see anyone even close to the Smith's level this year... Although I don't think they had an amazing year like everyone said, they did surprise me.

[beardown3231]

34 minutes ago, The_Romen said:

Who is going on the open market that's a better player than Floyd? Do you just address the pass rush and do the GB move and get two bargain EDGE rushers, hope they can be enough to keep the pressure off Mack and come in and relieve him?

I don't see anyone even close to the Smith's level this year... Although I don't think they had an amazing year like everyone said, they did surprise me.

Smith and Smith weren't exactly bargains, but I get what you're saying.

[The_Romen]

9 minutes ago, beardown3231 said:

Smith and Smith weren't exactly bargains, but I get what you're saying.

Yeah. Higher end contracts, but would you rather have those two or just Mack with his contract? Basically what I'm saying.

Do we want just Floyd on his contract or two (probably) worse players on bargain contracts.

[AZBearsFan]

2 hours ago, The_Romen said:

Who is going on the open market that's a better player than Floyd? Do you just address the pass rush and do the GB move and get two bargain EDGE rushers, hope they can be enough to keep the pressure off Mack and come in and relieve him?

I don't see anyone even close to the Smith's level this year... Although I don't think they had an amazing year like everyone said, they did surprise me.

We clearly look at Floyd’s value differently. To me he’s a solid role player with a top 10 pick 5th year option price tag. We hear so much about his versatility and value in coverage, but you can count without taking your shoes off how many passes he’s deflected in 4 seasons which would include both PD in pass coverage and tipped passes at the line when rushing the QB. He has one career INT, which came off a pass deflected by someone else. Can you recall many if any instances where Floyd the coverage LB is shutting down opposing TEs? Do we see him covering in the slot? Sure don’t. He’s a solid run defender without question and his athleticism is off the charts but at the end of the day that’s all he is - an athletic run stopping specialist who in 4 years has had essentially no improvement in that which is the primary role of his position. We hear so much about how “well” he does the other things because his pass rush ability is that of a top reserve. His play in the pass game is overrated and distantly secondary to me since on any given down there are at least 5 capable pass defenders on the field outside of our edge defenders in the 4 DBs plus Roquan. The need for a good coverage LB is well behind the need for a guy who can get to the QB there. So to address your question, who is better than him in FA? A lot of guys. Looking at the UFA edge list as it sits today (before any tags, re-signings, etc.) 

I’d say any of the following would be CLEAR upgrades over Floyd for our need in an edge defender: Jadeveon Clowney, Shaq Barrett, Matt Judon, Robert Quinn, Yannick Ngakoue, Bud Dupree, Markus Golden, Bruce Irvin, Jason Pierre-Paul. Those are all guys clearly deserving multi-year deals as locked in strong players. Some will surely cost more than Floyd’s $13.2M in 2020 but definitely not all of them (contract structures matter), and all are clearly better players for what we need at the position IMO.

Among guys I’d be comfortable either as short term upgrades or guys to pair with a rookie to fill Floyd’s shoes comparably or more so at a significantly lower cost I’d add: Dante Fowler Jr. (prove it deal), Mario Addison (with a rookie), Terrell Suggs (with a rookie), Emmanuel Ogbah (with a rookie), Carl Nassib (with a rookie). 

I would personally give Golden. Quinn or JPP Floyd’s money in a cocaine heartbeat and never look back. I don’t care one lick that none of them adds anything as a pass defender either because their value off the edge is so much more significant. Nobody’s going to care if our edges don’t excel in coverage with double digit sack numbers. I’d bet you could get any of them for an AAV near that of Floyd’s 2020 salary too. If we we’re to go the route of a guy and a pick in this hypothetical my preference is toward Addison or Ogbah paired with a guy in the first half of the draft. 

[The_Romen]

25 minutes ago, AZBearsFan said:

We clearly look at Floyd’s value differently. 

I agree on basically everything. I'm not opposed to revoking his tag, but I'd like to know that they're getting at least as solid a player as him. For me, on defense, I love players who you never hear their name as complimentary pieces. Prince, Alex Brown, Ogunleye, Chris Harris... All players I love that were worth every penny.

Floyd isn't an impact player, no. It sucks. His draft position means he should be worth the 13 mil, but he's by no means bad. Overpaid? Yes, but I like the Bears re-signing their homegrown talent while mixing in depth free agents.

Jadeveon Clowney, Shaq Barrett, Matt Judon, Robert Quinn, Yannick Ngakoue, Bud Dupree, Markus Golden, Bruce Irvin, Jason Pierre-Paul

I'm not mad at any of these but Clowney is an even more overpriced Floyd. Barrett is solid but nothing special... Streaky like Floyd. No thanks on JPP either. I'd be fine with basically any of the other guys, though. I'm really hoping they'll draft someone early because it's such a premium position.

 

Edited February 11, 2020 by The_Romen

[AZBearsFan]

18 minutes ago, The_Romen said:

I agree on basically everything. I'm not opposed to revoking his tag, but I'd like to know that they're getting at least as solid a player as him. For me, on defense, I love players who you never hear their name as complimentary pieces. Prince, Alex Brown, Ogunleye, Chris Harris... All players I love that were worth every penny.

Floyd isn't an impact player, no. It sucks. His draft position means he should be worth the 13 mil, but he's by no means bad. Overpaid? Yes, but I like the Bears re-signing their homegrown talent while mixing in depth free agents.

Jadeveon Clowney, Shaq Barrett, Matt Judon, Robert Quinn, Yannick Ngakoue, Bud Dupree, Markus Golden, Bruce Irvin, Jason Pierre-Paul

I'm not mad at any of these but Clowney is an even more overpriced Floyd. Barrett is solid but nothing special... Streaky like Floyd. No thanks on JPP either. I'd be fine with basically any of the other guys, though. I'm really hoping they'll draft someone early because it's such a premium position.

 

The option that makes the most sense to me is to rescind, sign a shorter term pass rush specialist like Addison and then draft a guy to be the long term guy. I really love the idea of Mack and Markus Golden though. As far as coverage ability goes I’d put more emphasis on that trait in whoever we are putting next to Roquan in the middle. If my edges are going to excel at one thing it’s going to be getting the QB on the ground. Especially with Hicks and to a lesser extent Nichols and RRH in the middle, that’s what’s going to drive the success of our defense. 

[The_Romen]

3 minutes ago, AZBearsFan said:

The option that makes the most sense to me is to rescind, sign a shorter term pass rush specialist like Addison and then draft a guy to be the long term guy. I really love the idea of Mack and Markus Golden though. As far as coverage ability goes I’d put more emphasis on that trait in whoever we are putting next to Roquan in the middle. If my edges are going to excel at one thing it’s going to be getting the QB on the ground. Especially with Hicks and to a lesser extent Nichols and RRH in the middle, that’s what’s going to drive the success of our defense. 

Fair. I'd definitely not be mad with Addison, another FA and a pick. I'm not a huge Golden guy, but I can see the potential.

[Damikeeeee]

Yes.

[Heinz D.]

8 hours ago, The_Romen said:

I'm not mad at any of these but Clowney is an even more overpriced Floyd.

What?

Good lord, that isn't even sort of true. 

[The_Romen]

24 minutes ago, Heinz D. said:

What?

Good lord, that isn't even sort of true. 

He's better... But not tons better.

[JAF-N72EX]

9 hours ago, AZBearsFan said:

The option that makes the most sense to me is to rescind, sign a shorter term pass rush specialist like Addison and then draft a guy to be the long term guy. I really love the idea of Mack and Markus Golden though. As far as coverage ability goes I’d put more emphasis on that trait in whoever we are putting next to Roquan in the middle. If my edges are going to excel at one thing it’s going to be getting the QB on the ground. Especially with Hicks and to a lesser extent Nichols and RRH in the middle, that’s what’s going to drive the success of our defense. 

Your main stance about the OLB position has been that it's most important that the player has the ability to beat a pass rush with regularity and that is not what you are getting from a player like Golden either.

He has been invisible for the last 3 years, which is why Arizona gave up on him, and you are being fooled by his 10 sacks when the majority of them have been coverage sacks (and QB mistakes) and much less about his ability to rush the passer.

[AZBearsFan]

1 minute ago, JustAnotherFan said:

Your main stance about the OLB position has been that it's most important that the player has the ability to beat a pass rush with regularity and that is not what you are getting from a player like Golden either.

He has been invisible for the last 3 years, which is why Arizona gave up on him, and you are being fooled by his 10 sacks when the majority of them have been coverage sacks (and QB mistakes) and much less about his ability to rush the passer.

2017 Golden was hurt almost the entire season after tearing his ACL (4 games) and in 2018 they switched schemes under Wilks significantly changing Golden’s role and he played just 35% of their defensive snaps. 2019 put him back in a more similar role to 2016 and he again produced. I haven’t seen the “coverage sacks and QB mistake” stats thing anywhere but I’d be interested to see. Do you have a link? 

[JAF-N72EX]

27 minutes ago, AZBearsFan said:

2017 Golden was hurt almost the entire season after tearing his ACL (4 games) and in 2018 they switched schemes under Wilks significantly changing Golden’s role and he played just 35% of their defensive snaps. 2019 put him back in a more similar role to 2016 and he again produced. I haven’t seen the “coverage sacks and QB mistake” stats thing anywhere but I’d be interested to see. Do you have a link? 

I can't post a link because of the rules of the forum and also out of respect for the company's policy (plus you wouldn't be able to see it yourself anyhow). But I can put together a quick video showing all of his sacks throughout his career in all-22 just to show you. Not gonna do it tonight because it's too late and I'm working but I can do it tomorrow if I get a chance. It's been going on for years, this isn't just some made-up myth...

He is not a consistent pass rusher. He is an okay run stopper but bad in coverage. <<<Your paying 13-15M for this over Floyd's 13M (who already knows the system)??? I can't get behind that. 

[WindyCity]

19 hours ago, AZBearsFan said:

We clearly look at Floyd’s value differently. To me he’s a solid role player with a top 10 pick 5th year option price tag. We hear so much about his versatility and value in coverage, but you can count without taking your shoes off how many passes he’s deflected in 4 seasons which would include both PD in pass coverage and tipped passes at the line when rushing the QB. He has one career INT, which came off a pass deflected by someone else. Can you recall many if any instances where Floyd the coverage LB is shutting down opposing TEs? Do we see him covering in the slot? Sure don’t. He’s a solid run defender without question and his athleticism is off the charts but at the end of the day that’s all he is - an athletic run stopping specialist who in 4 years has had essentially no improvement in that which is the primary role of his position. We hear so much about how “well” he does the other things because his pass rush ability is that of a top reserve. His play in the pass game is overrated and distantly secondary to me since on any given down there are at least 5 capable pass defenders on the field outside of our edge defenders in the 4 DBs plus Roquan. The need for a good coverage LB is well behind the need for a guy who can get to the QB there. So to address your question, who is better than him in FA? A lot of guys. Looking at the UFA edge list as it sits today (before any tags, re-signings, etc.) 

I’d say any of the following would be CLEAR upgrades over Floyd for our need in an edge defender: Jadeveon Clowney, Shaq Barrett, Matt Judon, Robert Quinn, Yannick Ngakoue, Bud Dupree, Markus Golden, Bruce Irvin, Jason Pierre-Paul. Those are all guys clearly deserving multi-year deals as locked in strong players. Some will surely cost more than Floyd’s $13.2M in 2020 but definitely not all of them (contract structures matter), and all are clearly better players for what we need at the position IMO.

Among guys I’d be comfortable either as short term upgrades or guys to pair with a rookie to fill Floyd’s shoes comparably or more so at a significantly lower cost I’d add: Dante Fowler Jr. (prove it deal), Mario Addison (with a rookie), Terrell Suggs (with a rookie), Emmanuel Ogbah (with a rookie), Carl Nassib (with a rookie). 

I would personally give Golden. Quinn or JPP Floyd’s money in a cocaine heartbeat and never look back. I don’t care one lick that none of them adds anything as a pass defender either because their value off the edge is so much more significant. Nobody’s going to care if our edges don’t excel in coverage with double digit sack numbers. I’d bet you could get any of them for an AAV near that of Floyd’s 2020 salary too. If we we’re to go the route of a guy and a pick in this hypothetical my preference is toward Addison or Ogbah paired with a guy in the first half of the draft. 

Jadeveon Clowney, Shaq Barrett, Matt Judon, Robert Quinn, Yannick Ngakoue, Bud Dupree, Markus Golden, Bruce Irvin, Jason Pierre-Paul.

Only one I disagree with.

Everyone listed is going to get Floyd money on a long term and significant guaranteed deal. Maybe JPP comes cheaper because of all the injuries.