Who deserves more credit for the Patriots' success: Brady or Belichick?

[TecmoSuperJoe]

On 4/8/2020 at 11:24 AM, Yin-Yang said:

So I’ll ask again - are the facts presented to you are irrelevant, yes or no? It’s usually how it goes whenever I post them, that’s part of the reason why I’ve grown tired of doing so. Because actual wins and losses don’t seem to matter...

It’s interesting to see the lengths people go to - wins and losses don’t matter, making the playoffs doesn’t matter, only contending does. And making the playoffs isn’t enough to contend evidently, so we can just scratch all the times the AFCE teams make the playoffs. And who cares that the Pats’ record vs the division is right in line with their division out of it - doesn’t matter. 

I’m not going to sit here and pretend that the AFCE was some buzz saw division, but it gets completely overstated for some reason (go figure). The teams usually switch years being bad and are seldom consistently good for any length of the time, so they don’t get remembered and it’s easier just to ignore actual facts right in front of you. 

Sure they're relevant to a degree. Quality of wins are just as important as the wins acquired themselves. I wouldn't stop at the Bills, Dolphins, and Jets beating up against each other stacking wins. How those teams did once they got to the playoffs, or how they played against teams with a quality DVOA compared to when they didn't all those years is important too. None of those teams made a Super Bowl since 2002, and only the Jets have been to a championship game (twice). Bills and Dolphins can't even win a playoff game if they get in the playoffs. 

Edited April 9, 2020 by PapaShogun

[Danger]

On 4/6/2020 at 1:11 PM, Calamity_Cometh said:

That Falcons Super Bowl was all Brady.  My stepbrother left at halftime and said that it's over. I said "bro you have no idea what you have just done."

conversely, the Rams super bowl was all Belichik/defense.

I don't think at this time you can separate Brady and Belichik, and at this point in Brady's career, it's not really fair to speculate based on prior success by what the Bucs do this year. 

[seminoles1]

They both deserve lots of credit.

[DannyB]

59 minutes ago, seminoles1 said:

They both deserve lots of credit.

damn keep your scorching hot take away from me, I don't want to get burned!

[DannyB]

I don't know who I give more credit to overall, but I do lean Bill for the first half of the dynasty, but I lean Brady for the latter half. I also give Bill more credit for the most recent Super Bowl. On the flipside, I blame Bill more for the Eagles loss, and Brady more (although really it was the offense as a whole, not specifically Brady) for the '07 Giants loss. The '11 Giants loss was just...whatever. Underwhelming team any way you slice it, in comparison to the Patriots standards.

[seminoles1]

40 minutes ago, DannyB said:

damn keep your scorching hot take away from me, I don't want to get burned!

 

33 minutes ago, DannyB said:

I don't know who I give more credit to overall, but I do lean Bill for the first half of the dynasty, but I lean Brady for the latter half. I also give Bill more credit for the most recent Super Bowl. On the flipside, I blame Bill more for the Eagles loss, and Brady more (although really it was the offense as a whole, not specifically Brady) for the '07 Giants loss. The '11 Giants loss was just...whatever. Underwhelming team any way you slice it, in comparison to the Patriots standards.

Yeah, really went out on a ledge with this take.

[SteelKing728]

10 hours ago, Hunter2_1 said:

This one is easy for me. Carr.

Bridgy has to be one of the most overrated players, based on the dying desperate need to find SOME form of serviceable backup QB, because they're pretty much trash apart from Ted. But not trash does equal good. 

Ugh, I usually like your posts too haha

[Soko]

7 hours ago, PapaShogun said:

Sure they're relevant to a degree. Quality of wins are just as important as the wins acquired themselves. I wouldn't stop at the Bills, Dolphins, and Jets beating up against each other stacking wins. How those teams did once they got to the playoffs, or how they played against teams with a quality DVOA compared to when they didn't all those years is important too. None of those teams made a Super Bowl since 2002, and only the Jets have been to a championship game (twice). Bills and Dolphins can't even win a playoff game if they get in the playoffs. 

The statistic is wins vs teams outside the division. Meaning they’re 100% not beating up on themselves for wins (which doesn’t even make sense, because it results in a net 1-1 for the division every time). 

Of the 38 AFCCG participants since 2001, twelve have been the Patriots. Five have been Peyton Manning. Four have been the Steelers. Three have been the Ravens. Two have been the Jets. Two have been the Titans. Two have been the Mahomes. One was Rivers. One was the Raiders. The share of championship games aren’t that wide. Especially when you consider you have the GOAT span in NE, two of the best organizations in Baltimore/Pittsburgh, a GOAT in Manning, a likely HOFer in Rivers, and now the best QB in Mahomes. The AFC has had consistent entities for the most part and really only one division (the AFCN) has had two powerhouses for the length of that time. And NE has a good record against all those teams (Denver and to a lesser extent Baltimore, notwithstanding). 

So just to clarify - you think being in the winningest division (vs teams outside the division), with the most multiple 10 win teams, was gift wrapping the #1 seed?

Edited April 9, 2020 by Yin-Yang

[DannyB]

5 hours ago, seminoles1 said:

 

Yeah, really went out on a ledge with this take.

More words makes it look like I'm further out on a ledge.

[TecmoSuperJoe]

3 hours ago, Yin-Yang said:

The statistic is wins vs teams outside the division. Meaning they’re 100% not beating up on themselves for wins (which doesn’t even make sense, because it results in a net 1-1 for the division every time). 

Of the 38 AFCCG participants since 2001, twelve have been the Patriots. Five have been Peyton Manning. Four have been the Steelers. Three have been the Ravens. Two have been the Jets. Two have been the Titans. Two have been the Mahomes. One was Rivers. One was the Raiders. The share of championship games aren’t that wide. Especially when you consider you have the GOAT span in NE, two of the best organizations in Baltimore/Pittsburgh, a GOAT in Manning, a likely HOFer in Rivers, and now the best QB in Mahomes. The AFC has had consistent entities for the most part and really only one division (the AFCN) has had two powerhouses for the length of that time. And NE has a good record against all those teams (Denver and to a lesser extent Baltimore, notwithstanding). 

So just to clarify - you think being in the winningest division (vs teams outside the division), with the most multiple 10 win teams, was gift wrapping the #1 seed?

I think being in a division where the Patriots never had to worry about playing the Ravens, Steelers, Colts, Chargers, or Chiefs twice a year was helpful. It doesn't taint the Patriots success really, because they still had to beat the big dogs once they got the playoffs, but never having to worry about getting swept against any division rival outside of maybe one or two years in twenty is a good thing to have in your back pocket.

Edited April 9, 2020 by PapaShogun

[Soko]

30 minutes ago, PapaShogun said:

I think being in a division where the Patriots never had to worry about playing the Ravens, Steelers, Colts, Chargers, or Chiefs twice a year was helpful. It doesn't taint the Patriots success really, because they still had to beat the big dogs once they got the playoffs, but never having to worry about getting swept against any division rival outside of maybe one or two years in twenty is a good thing to have in your back pocket.

8-5 vs Ravens

15-4 vs Colts

7-5 vs Chiefs 

13-3 vs Steelers 

10-2 vs Chargers

Total: .736

.645 vs teams that would make the playoffs

.625 vs teams that would finish 9-7 or better 

So the Pats actually have a better win % vs the teams you think we be such a bother than they do vs playoff/winning teams. Your point holds no water. And for reference, vs each division:

AFCS - .774

NFCS - .773

NFCE - .750

NFCW - .750

AFCE - .746

AFCN - .745

NFCN - .739

AFCW - .660

Those are percentages vs the three apparently terrible AFCE teams being compared to the percentage vs complete divisions - that means including the best teams in the divisions. So I’ll ask again: you think playing in the winningest division (vs non division opponents) with the most multiple 10 win teams, is an advantage for the Patriots? Even after seeing they’ve been dominant vs nearly any sum of opponents?

Edited April 9, 2020 by Yin-Yang

[TecmoSuperJoe]

57 minutes ago, Yin-Yang said:

8-5 vs Ravens

15-4 vs Colts

7-5 vs Chiefs 

13-3 vs Steelers 

10-2 vs Chargers

Total: .736

.645 vs teams that would make the playoffs

.625 vs teams that would finish 9-7 or better 

So the Pats actually have a better win % vs the teams you think we be such a bother than they do vs playoff/winning teams. Your point holds no water. And for reference, vs each division:

AFCS - .774

NFCS - .773

NFCE - .750

NFCW - .750

AFCE - .746

AFCN - .745

NFCN - .739

AFCW - .660

Those are percentages vs the three apparently terrible AFCE teams being compared to the percentage vs complete divisions - that means including the best teams in the divisions. So I’ll ask again: you think playing in the winningest division (vs non division opponents) with the most multiple 10 win teams, is an advantage for the Patriots? Even after seeing they’ve been dominant vs nearly any sum of opponents?

AS A DIVISIONAL RIVAL dude. Why is this so complex for you to understand? Division teams know each other better and usually play tighter games against each other because of having to play each other twice a year. Patriots never had to deal with that consistently against a divisonal rival that was a Super Bowl contender. My god it's like talking to a brick wall. 

"But, but, the Jets, Bills, and Dolphins rotated 10 wins every other season even if they never did **** in the playoffs!!!" That's the argument that DOES hold water? 

I'm out.

 

Edited April 10, 2020 by PapaShogun

[Soko]

8 minutes ago, PapaShogun said:

AS A DIVISIONAL RIVAL dude. Why is this so complex for you to understand? Division teams know each other better and usually play tighter games against each other because of having to play each other twice a year. Patriots never had to deal with that consistently against a divisonal rival that was a Super Bowl contender. My god it's like talking to a brick wall. 

So the Pats weren’t familiar with the Harbaugh-Ravens, Peyton-Colts, or Tomlin-Steelers? Unfamiliar with Andy Reid and Phillip Rivers? If anything the coaching turnover in the AFCE presents more unfamiliarity than playing perennial division winners. NE was playing most of the teams you mentioned every season, if not twice. Belichick’s probably played more games vs those coaches/players than they have most of the AFCE coaches. That argument doesn’t hold water either.

You’re just blatantly ignoring unbiased facts right now. But again, not an unfamiliar sight on the topic. 

Edited April 10, 2020 by Yin-Yang

[Hunter2_1]

6 hours ago, Yin-Yang said:

So the Pats weren’t familiar with the Harbaugh-Ravens, Peyton-Colts, or Tomlin-Steelers? Unfamiliar with Andy Reid and Phillip Rivers? If anything the coaching turnover in the AFCE presents more unfamiliarity than playing perennial division winners. NE was playing most of the teams you mentioned every season, if not twice. Belichick’s probably played more games vs those coaches/players than they have most of the AFCE coaches. That argument doesn’t hold water either.

You’re just blatantly ignoring unbiased facts right now. But again, not an unfamiliar sight on the topic. 

I think Brady and Bill together have played Mike Tomlin 11 times. (Winning 8). Only 1 game fewer than Rex Ryan's Jets, who's the longest serving AFCE HC in the past 12 years or so. Identical wins against %.

It's cherry-picking, but if you were to swap PIT for either Miami or NYJ, based on our wins against PIT, it would be no different. In fact, Miami give us more trouble. 

Edited April 10, 2020 by Hunter2_1

[Soko]

5 minutes ago, Hunter2_1 said:

I think Brady and Bill together have played Mike Tomlin 11 times. (Winning 8). Only 1 fewer than Rex Ryan's Jets, who's the longest serving AFCE HC in the past 12 years or so. Identical wins against %.

It's cherry-picking, but if you were to swap PIT for either Miami or NYJ, based on our wins against PIT, it would be no different. In fact, Miami give us more trouble. 

Edited April 10, 2020 by Yin-Yang