Ravens Rundown: Week 3 2017

[Mancunian Raven]

49 minutes ago, coordinator0 said:

Completely. I was just pointing out that Flacco's downfield throws will look the same regardless of offensive structure. Mornhinweg has been as uninspiring as expected when Harbaugh foolishly retained him over giving the offense a new look. 

I quickly went and had a look at who the Ravens QB coach is, the man tasked with addressing the flaws in Flacco's game, and was reminded that it's still Mornhinweg. Who is also OC. So clearly the Ravens still haven't learned a damned thing about how to develop a QB. They had Jim Zorn, and Joe started to develop well. They fired Jim Zorn because Cam hated anyone disagreeing with him, and Joe started to regress. Then they hired Jim Caldwell to fix the increasing flaws in Joe's game. And when they promoted him to OC, they didn't bother hiring another QB coach (because having Cam do both jobs worked out so well before). Then when Caldwell went and Kubiak came in, he brought Dennison as a dedicated QB coach and, lo and behold, Joe begins to play much better again.

So the story of this is, a QB needs a dedicated QB coach to focus solely on what he did well and what he did badly, to help him address mental and technical errors and improve. And... the Ravens didn't bother to hire one. Not even one of Harbs' proteges, like Matt Weiss or Chris Hewitt. It can't be much of a surprise, therefore, that the increasingly obvious flaws in his game are not being fixed.

It's absurd. You pay a guy $120million and the immediate future of the franchise (not to mention the head coach and his staff) rests on his shoulders. And you don't even try to put him in the best position to succeed. It's like buying a thoroughbred racehorse and feeding it mouldy hay. The Ravens should be going out and finding the best young coaching talent, identifying someone who can work with Flacco to bring out his very best, to try and recapture that confidence and swagger of the Super Bowl run. They don't. Again, they just seem to settle for 'eh, that's probably good enough'. I don't know if that's on Ozzie or Harbs or even on Joe himself (I doubt it's on Steve, who seems as frustrated as a lot of fans).

It's probably too late, now. With Flacco getting more banged up and more set in his ways, fixing his game is unlikely to happen. But it's unforgivable, really, that they let it get to this stage.

[Rein]

I agree with most of what's been said so far about Flacco and the lack of development throughout the years.

I wonder how he'd react if we brought in a 2nd/3rd round draft pick to compete with him?

[M.10.E]

23 minutes ago, Rein said:

I agree with most of what's been said so far about Flacco and the lack of development throughout the years.

I wonder how he'd react if we brought in a 2nd/3rd round draft pick to compete with him?

Which I think has to happen in the next year or two anyways. Have a guy sit for two years and once Joe's contract is up plop him in.

[SalvadorsDeli]

Not going to defend the coaching but just going to say that it feels like we're just finding a new trap to fall into on the "Joe Flacco cannot fail, he can only be failed" narrative that I think a lot of Ravens fans fall into. It's not one thing or the other, so it's not like the other factors aren't there, but a lot of this comes down to Flacco himself. 

The constant instability at the OC/QB coaching level has been bad, but the flip side of that is that we're talking about a 32 year old QB as if he's a 25 year old who needs constant coddling. People still treat it as an anomaly and point of pride when Flacco audibles into a play and it goes well (like he did in the Cincy game for the Maclin touchdown) when the good QB's are doing that on a weekly basis. 

I look at Flacco and I don't really see a guy who has ever been desperate to improve in the first place. And I see a guy who has largely been coasting since he got his ring and he got paid. We love to brag about how good the guy is in the playoffs but rarely acknowledge what that probably says about Flacco, which is that he doesn't bring the intensity/focus needed to succeed on a weekly basis unless the importance is so obvious even he can't ignore it. 

You can do a lot to work around that, and we have, and we should have done a lot more over the years to develop and prepare Flacco for the role he needs to play... but the onus also needs to be on him as the franchise guy, the supposed leader, the dude collecting tens of millions of dollars a year to even be passably decent. 

 

[Mancunian Raven]

23 minutes ago, BaltimoreTerp said:

Not going to defend the coaching but just going to say that it feels like we're just finding a new trap to fall into on the "Joe Flacco cannot fail, he can only be failed" narrative that I think a lot of Ravens fans fall into. It's not one thing or the other, so it's not like the other factors aren't there, but a lot of this comes down to Flacco himself. 

The constant instability at the OC/QB coaching level has been bad, but the flip side of that is that we're talking about a 32 year old QB as if he's a 25 year old who needs constant coddling. People still treat it as an anomaly and point of pride when Flacco audibles into a play and it goes well (like he did in the Cincy game for the Maclin touchdown) when the good QB's are doing that on a weekly basis. 

I certainly don't intend to make excuses for Flacco now, because I'm as low on him as I ever have been. In the past, I've always defended him and said, 'yeah but if he only had...' but now I'm past that point. I just don't think the Ravens can improve on offense with Flacco at QB, and I don't think Flacco is going to fix the things that are wrong with his game.

But we're stuck with him, and his contract, for another three years. And we're likely stuck with mediocre coaching, until Harbaugh leaves. He seems to value personal relationships with his staff over actually having the best people in place. So any replacement is likely to be little better. Even if the Ravens drafted a QB in the first round next year, how can we have any confidence that he'd have a line that could protect him and WRs that would fight for every ball, that would relentlessly try to beat CBs?

 

[Danand]

6 hours ago, BaltimoreTerp said:

Joe Flacco is just a bad quarterback. This whole "all he needs is a great offensive line and a good running game and receivers who can make contested catch" stuff that we're constantly doing to pass the buck on to someone else are all just different ways of saying that we've got a crappy quarterback who needs everyone else to carry him in order to even pass as an NFL-caliber QB. Oldest rookie in the league. 

Neither side of the ball was remotely good yesterday but the cause and effect here is the offense sucking leading to a gassed defense that wears down and can't make any stops. But unless Joe figures things out in a big way we're going to hover around .500 again this year at best. 

I say it again, the Jaguars moved the ball at will against us from their first snap. The defense unability to stop anything is the main reason they were gassed.

[bzane]

6 hours ago, BaltimoreTerp said:

Joe Flacco is just a bad quarterback. This whole "all he needs is a great offensive line and a good running game and receivers who can make contested catch" stuff that we're constantly doing to pass the buck on to someone else are all just different ways of saying that we've got a crappy quarterback who needs everyone else to carry him in order to even pass as an NFL-caliber QB. Oldest rookie in the league. 

Neither side of the ball was remotely good yesterday but the cause and effect here is the offense sucking leading to a gassed defense that wears down and can't make any stops. But unless Joe figures things out in a big way we're going to hover around .500 again this year at best. 

Well, yes, but let's not forget that he is tall and handsome!

A lot of the ladies (and some of the guys) forgive all his quarterbacking sins, because of that. Manly fellow on the TV commercials.

When I suggested that Flacco might not ever be able to lead the Ravens back to the Super Bowl, my wife screamed, "Yeah, well, he's a lot more man than YOU'LL ever be, you little weasel!!!"

[AFlaccoSeagulls]

46 minutes ago, Danand said:

I say it again, the Jaguars moved the ball at will against us from their first snap. The defense unability to stop anything is the main reason they were gassed.

While that may be true, we punted 7 times and here are our drive charts:

START QTR POSS. YARD PLAYS YARDS RESULT 15:00 1 01:28 BAL 40 3 -1 Punt 09:05 1 01:40 BAL 25 3 8 Punt 03:32 1 01:27 BAL 25 3 -8 Punt 10:49 2 00:56 BAL 25 3 4 Punt 08:17 2 00:11 BAL 20 1 0 Interception 04:55 2 02:02 BAL 25 5 13 Punt 00:38 2 00:26 BAL 25 3 4 Punt 11:48 3 01:23 BAL 5 3 11 Interception 09:42 3 01:29 BAL 25 4 29 Fumble 07:48 3 04:24 BAL 25 5 17 Punt 14:56 4 05:22 BAL 25 12 38 Downs 08:33 4 05:09 BAL 24 9 76 Touchdown

I'm not giving our defense a pass for sucking, but them being gassed can be equally attributed to the offense doing literally nothing every single drive and immediately putting them back onto the field as much as it is attributed to them getting their faces pushed in every drive.

[AFlaccoSeagulls]

Likewise, I echo what most are saying about Flacco. I'm a little exhausted of the "well, when we give him all-world talent he can succeed!". We're never going to have that, and Joe still plays like a 2nd year player and he's being paid as the best QB in the NFL this year. Something's gotta give here.

[drd23]

There's some great points being made here.

I'm with @BaltimoreTerp that Flacco is just a bad QB now, and that most of us are guilty of making excuses for him that are usually made for young, developing  QBs - of which Flacco is neither. 

3 hours ago, Mancunian Raven said:

But we're stuck with him, and his contract, for another three years.

We can actually save money against the cap by cutting him in 2019 - it'd  be a saving of $10.5m against a dead money cap hit of $16m, but still.

[Danand]

Weird how I seem to have to be the optimistic person, but when did Flacco have the elite talent/all talent of the world on offense that he so sorely needs?

We have been competitive with him when the oline is decent and there are enough pieces on offense to make a difference.

When nothing works around them and the talent is suspicious, 90 percent of all quarterbacks struggle. This is why we talk about changing quarterbacks like Flacco and Dalton, who both made the postseason when the talent around them was good enough. This has nothing to do with craddling a QB, or that he has to be carried. But a QB need his tools and units around him who doesn't fall apart. 

Just as mancunian, I am now really pessimistic about what we trot out there on offense, as our receivers did absolutely nothing in the game. Nothing was open and Flacco never had the time Bortles did. It was the same for Dalton, the same for every QB who has pressure in his face constantly.

I would be more than happy if Flacco was better - a lot better. But from what I have seen, this weeks outing (and week 1 also) he is not much different from most quarterbacks in the league.

[Danand]

With the link above as an example, when he has things going for him, I am not concerned Flacco would take a chance and hit one of the two players deep. Ofc bad Flacco would take the checkdown.

 

[berlin calling]

I agree on the opinion that Flacco seems satisfied w/ having a ring and a 120m contract and lacks the drive and personality to steadily improve and compete. Combined with a FO not willing to accept a down year and just fully commit to rebuild, cut lose of old overpaid players, eat the dead money and be bottom dwellers for 2-3 years maybe. Whats the point to be just good enough, middle of the pack, 7-9/8-8 year after year and missing the playoffs constantly. Take actions if your old formula doesn't work.

[Mancunian Raven]

2 hours ago, berlin calling said:

I agree on the opinion that Flacco seems satisfied w/ having a ring and a 120m contract and lacks the drive and personality to steadily improve and compete. Combined with a FO not willing to accept a down year and just fully commit to rebuild, cut lose of old overpaid players, eat the dead money and be bottom dwellers for 2-3 years maybe. Whats the point to be just good enough, middle of the pack, 7-9/8-8 year after year and missing the playoffs constantly. Take actions if your old formula doesn't work.

Trying to be competitive every year is admirable,  of course, and the Ravens have done a pretty good job of that in Harbaugh's time as HC. But ultimately it works against you, because we're talking about almost a decade of picking after fifteen or twenty other teams. Losing out on all that top level talent, having to try to find players lower down the foodchain, it all wears on a franchise. 

For example, if we went 8-8 This year, we might be picking 16th again, and miss out on a top RB in round 1, a great OG prospect in round 2, and so on. So there is benefit to be had in being truly terrible for a year or two, as long as you draft well with the picks you get, and have good coaches in place. The Jaguars are a great example of that (though they were terrible for a lot longer than just two years).

But if we truly collapsed this year, and got a top 4 pick, I wonder what the FO would do if one of the top QB prospects fell to them....

[Danand]

Imo the idea of a FRANCHISE QB is so romanticized (I am making up words here). Who is the QB in the last couple of years who continually lifts the entire team around him? Matt stafford has had questions with regard to his performances, but seems to really flourish under the same coordinator for the second year in a row. Had one of the best receivers ever to help him the first couple of years. Sam Bradford, Andrew Luck, Cam Newton, Mariotta, Carr and so forth, imo neither of them proved they are just that good they can lift everyone else on offense due to their play.