Pick #19 is in: CB Damon Arnette, Ohio State

[RaidersAreOne]

 

[Turnobili]

1 hour ago, NYRaider said:

We've invested a lot into the CB room with a 1st, early 2nd, and two 4th round picks over the last two drafts. Hopefully they all workout and to be completely honest I'm more excited about Isaiah Johnson and Amik Robertson than I am about Mullen/Arnette. 

That's true but we were able to sign Randall on a bargain deal and he's only 27 plus Erik Harris is a solid #3 safety, IMO. Vic Tafur said they weren't interested in investing an early pick into a safety because they're essentially considering Abram as a rookie 1st round pick safety coming into 2020. I also wouldn't mind seeing Robertson tried as a hybrid NCB/FS like the Rams used Joyner and how the Chiefs use Mathieu. 

i would also generally argue that CB requires more depth than DE, and is generally a more difficult position to project. we have NOW invested a lot into CB, but going into FA and the draft, it was still a glaring position of weakness both at the top and with respect to depth.

it still could be a question mark going into next season, as we dont have a single stable, battle tested starter on the outside who we can confidently say will start in 2021. maybe mullen picks up where he left off and shows well. maybe he falls off like conley. maybe one of isaiah johnson or damon arnette show up big and lock down a starting role. maybe they're just others in a long line of CBs we've brought in who haven't panned out like Hayden, Van Dyke, Chekwa, McGill. even in the slot, most of this board loves the amik pick and we think he will supplant joyner. maybe he wont. and then joyner is likely cut bait with his salary after this season. or maybe joyner rebounds and has a great year in the slot.

on the other hand, maybe amik suprises everyone and plays himself into an outside CB starting role. the point is, there's a VERY wide range out outcomes we are looking at with the group we have, because we dont have a single veteran corner that we are fully confident in, let alone the young guys

it's a position group where we hopefully have enough young (and athletic/talented guys) candidates there where we can come out of it with 2-3 real players... but in today's NFL it's a position that requires multiple high level players to be competitive, and i dont think you can throw enough resources at that group until you KNOW you have 3 guys you like

Edited May 4, 2020 by Turnobili

[jimkelly02]

3 hours ago, Rich7sena said:

I don't understand your point.

Idk how to say this without coming off as a jerk... so.... if I was trying to be a jerk I’d say “Your only complaining cuz we didn’t pick your guy”. 

There are many reasons not to take Queen.  He’s a WILL (maybe can add weight/strength in time and play MIKE) and we have just signed Littleton.  Even if your valuing Queen at his peak, he’s not so great as to move Littleton or plan on replacing him in a year.  Queen can’t play SAM effectively.  He’s very weak at stacking shedding blocks, especially when run at.  So where does Queen fit in?  
 

You obviously don’t value Arnette and that’s fine.  But any player at #19 was going to have major concerns relative to value.  
 

Personally, I believed Arnette was CB4 until the 4.56 and 30” arms.  That DQ’d him for us and moved him into the 2nd tier with Johnson, Fulton, Gladney, Noah Igbinoghene, Diggs.

 

I think the issue is Johnson was overrated, especially around here, right at the end of the lead up to the draft.  He’s a solid but totally unspectacular prospect.  I’d even say My ArchRival BR was right that Fulton is likely destined to the slot, even though I argued against the only cuz I dislike him.  I think Fulton can play outside (it’s not like he absolutely can’t like BR said) but he’s much better off at slot.  Arnette without a 4.56 time is a tier above those other CBs.  
 

at the end of the day there is a lot to really like about Arnette.  He’s got good size and speed; 3 yrs of starting at OSU, press man skills, versatility: outside or slot; tackling and physical.  There really are not many big questions marks once you realize he isn’t 4.56.

and how much better would it have been to draft Johnson (50), Fulton (61), Braun (74) at 19?  Not to mention I’d bet everything on Arnette going to Minnesota, KC, Miami.  He wasn’t leaving round 1 after speed concerns were eliminated.

 

I’m still not happy with the value, especially because the pick is tied to the Mack deal.  However, I’ve really dig into what I feel is every facet of the situation and now agree it was the right move.  Doesn’t mean I’m happy about it though.

[jimkelly02]

1 hour ago, RaidersAreOne said:

 

I really like his aggression at the catch point.  He’s going to have to temper it in the NFL and better pick his times, but so many young CBs struggle there.  I still have bad dreams of HAYDEN never turning his head around.  Arnette either has his head in position or, which is an incredibly underrated and very difficult trait, is able to look back at the ball, then turn his head to receiver, and keep an accurate clock in his head for when the ball will arrive and get his hands inside the hands of the receiver or swipe hard at the ball.  He also has very strong hands when it comes to punching at the hall.

[jimkelly02]

I get the desire to go into the draft with no holes so there is no need to “reach” to fill a position.  However, that’s really not a obtainable task.  With 5 picks before 91, it was the right call to leave 2 major holes and a few positions that needed reinforcing.  The alternative is to sign guys like Apple for $6M and then draft a CB still.   You end of paying for players who don’t make team or hardly play and are a waste of cap space.  You also sacrifice the ability to sign guys who get cut or still are on the market in the post draft wave of FA To cheap deals.  There’s value in keeping some options open.

[Turnobili]

30 minutes ago, jimkelly02 said:

I really like his aggression at the catch point.  He’s going to have to temper it in the NFL and better pick his times, but so many young CBs struggle there.  I still have bad dreams of HAYDEN never turning his head around.  Arnette either has his head in position or, which is an incredibly underrated and very difficult trait, is able to look back at the ball, then turn his head to receiver, and keep an accurate clock in his head for when the ball will arrive and get his hands inside the hands of the receiver or swipe hard at the ball.  He also has very strong hands when it comes to punching at the hall.

Hayden, and going farther back, Van Dyke had too many plays where they were more or less positioned well but were completely unable to make a play on the ball.

Hayden bounced around but has now established himself as a good corner with the Jags

[NYRaider]

1 hour ago, Turnobili said:

it still could be a question mark going into next season, as we dont have a single stable, battle tested starter on the outside who we can confidently say will start in 2021.

the point is, there's a VERY wide range out outcomes we are looking at with the group we have, because we dont have a single veteran corner that we are fully confident in, let alone the young guys

Missing on Byron Jones in free agency really hurt. Assuming we landed him and didn't sign Littleton we could've taken Murray or Queen at #19. But we can't live in could've, would've, should've. 

We have Mullen who was a high second round pick that played well as a rookie plus essentially two other rookie first round picks in Abram/Arnette. As well as former first round pick Damarious Randall who has flashed and is entering his prime. It's not an experienced group but we have a lot of speed, length, and athleticism in the secondary now. We'll need our young players to step up and play well but that's what has to happen across the board for us defensively. Guys like Crosby/Ferrell have to take the next step, Collins/Hurst have to show they can do more than just flash, Kwit has to show he can be a good full-time starter, and Littleton has to play well outside of Los Angeles. 

[Rich7sena]

18 hours ago, raidr4life said:

How did they corner themselves? They could have taken any of the other corners the media had hyped up and there wouldn't be a problem, but their evaluations had him above those guy's. It was a WTF pick because most had him down graded for character and slow 40 time. but the fact is everybody pretty much believe that after Okudah and Henderson CB's 3 -8 could be anybodies guess. But now turn on the tape.

1) They didn't resolve the position in free agency, and 2) they didn't have a plan at 19 that didn't include taking Arnette at 19.

40-time and character weren't the only things working against Arnette. He's short-armed 5th-year senior, who didn't actually play well until his last year and we don't have any other athleticism data point besides 40-time. And the fact is, athleticism is a huge deal for corners. I think Arnette has too low of a floor and too low of a ceiling to be a mid-first round pick. Now, I don't think his chances of reaching either his floor or ceiling are all that high; I think he'll settle in as a mid-tier corner in the NFL (Bashad Breeland, Darqueze Dennard).

 

 

 

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15 hours ago, jimkelly02 said:

Idk how to say this without coming off as a jerk... so.... if I was trying to be a jerk I’d say “Your only complaining cuz we didn’t pick your guy”. 

Isn't this the argument against every pick in the draft?

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There are many reasons not to take Queen.  He’s a WILL (maybe can add weight/strength in time and play MIKE) and we have just signed Littleton.  Even if your valuing Queen at his peak, he’s not so great as to move Littleton or plan on replacing him in a year.  Queen can’t play SAM effectively.  He’s very weak at stacking shedding blocks, especially when run at.  So where does Queen fit in?  

I disagree with your evaluation of Queen. Before free agency, he and Murray were the presumptive picks at 19. Queen can play middle or weak and showed at LSU that he can effectively engage blockers. I would have Kwiatkowski play SLB in base, Littleton at MLB, and Queen at WLB. To start the year, Kwiatkowski would start over Queen, but the draft isn't about the first 6 games, or even the first season. I simply believe Queen was the best player available a position of semi-need, and a much much better prospect than Arnette. I would have also preferred Murray, who I think profiles more as an SLB than Queen, but a lesser full-time player because of his stiffness.

And those who track my tendencies on this forum know that I value corner extremely high. But the first round is the first round, and when top talents are available you should draft them even if they don't exactly fit an immediate need. If Arnette ever makes a Pro-Bowl, or even if he is re-signed to a second contract in Las Vegas, I would be very surprised.

Again, I am not saying Arnette is a bad player. In fact, I am very much not saying that. Arnette is a quality corner prospect with very little upside. What I am saying is that the Raiders passed over other more talented players because they really needed a corner--and that is not good team building.

[raidr4life]

@Rich7sena Saying they passed over a better player is your opinion, I however didn't think Queen would go until late first and after Murray, my opinion is Queen is not all that.

[Turnobili]

i was all aboard taking a WR at 12 and then LB at 19 (i preferred Murray), but that was before linebacker became our most targeted position in FA and we paid good money to 2 guys who are going to be the starters, in an NFL where you have 2 LBs on the field more often than not.

whether it was through FA or through the draft, we had to actually invest in the LB group, and not bargain shopping for old free agents or using a 5th round pick and calling the position "solved." once we actually committed to the position through FA, i no longer cared for spending an early pick on a linebacker.

i think the raiders plan at 19 was AJ Terrell, with Arnette being their panic fallback pick. the only poster here who i know was actually high on Arnette going in was BayRaider

Edited May 5, 2020 by Turnobili

[Rich7sena]

15 minutes ago, raidr4life said:

@Rich7sena Saying they passed over a better player is your opinion, I however didn't think Queen would go until late first and after Murray, my opinion is Queen is not all that.

Is your argument that every pick is unimpeachable? Why does this website exist?

[massraider]

If we had signed Apple, I still would have gone CB, assuming one is worth it. Mullen, Apple, Arnette, Amik, Johnson.  Fine with me.  

If I EVER hear that, in this division, we have TOO MANY cornerbacks, I'll be OK with it.  

[raidr4life]

1 hour ago, Rich7sena said:

Is your argument that every pick is unimpeachable? Why does this website exist?

Nope just giving my opinion same as you. But at this point we should all be waiting to see then revisit these arguments later.

[Turnobili]

29 minutes ago, massraider said:

If we had signed Apple, I still would have gone CB, assuming one is worth it. Mullen, Apple, Arnette, Amik, Johnson.  Fine with me.  

If I EVER hear that, in this division, we have TOO MANY cornerbacks, I'll be OK with it.  

yeah, it's not like Apple would have been the solution. barring acquiring a starter like byron jones or chris harris, i think we needed to come out of this draft with 2 corners.

[NYRaider]

1 hour ago, Turnobili said:

yeah, it's not like Apple would have been the solution. barring acquiring a starter like byron jones or chris harris, i think we needed to come out of this draft with 2 corners.

There's a reason that we only signed him to a 1 year deal. I think the plan was always to go CB in the 1st round once we missed on Jones, Bradberry, Harris, and Slay while focusing our attention on improving the LB group in free agency.