The QB Thread: Everything Carr, Stidham and beyond...

[BayRaider]

29 minutes ago, BobbyPhil1781 said:

Dislike Carr all you'd want but if I'm glad he's going to be our QB over Mariota and Jimmy G. It's tough to deny he's not better than both of them, one far more than the other. 

I don’t think anyone was debating if they are better than Carr. I think the debate was Jimmy 25M vs Carr 40M or Mariota 15M and draft a QB in the 1st vs Carr 40M. I would not be opposed to option #2 but I would not downgrade to Jimmy just for 15M in savings. 

You are right, we are likely rolling with Carr for another two seasons. It’ll be similar to Shanahan/Jimmy where Kyle realizes he can’t win with Jimmy in the playoffs. Then we’ll probably trade Carr after two years once he falters in the playoffs in back to back years. That’s what I see happening, anyways. 

I’d prefer to not go through that and find a solution at QB now, but McDaniels and Ziegler realize they have to solidfy their job first with a couple winning seasons before they gamble at QB. Just like Kyle and Lynch did. They proved they were for real, and could gamble on QB without getting fired shortly after. Same with McVay. 

Edited February 20, 2022 by BayRaider

[drfrey13]

5 minutes ago, BobbyPhil1781 said:

Dislike Carr all you'd want but if I'm glad he's going to be our QB over Mariota and Jimmy G. It's tough to deny he's not better than both of them, one far more than the other. 

Nobody wants to get rid of Carr and go with MM or Jimmy G long term.  We are talking about taking a chance on drafting a QB and using Jimmy G or MM as a bridge.  None of us said we hate Carr.  I have said he is not good enough to win a championship without having a great team around him.  I want to upgrade at the position and would probably feel the same way if Stafford was our QB.  I do like Stafford's mentality more than Carr's but I would not say there is a big difference between the 2 overall.  I do think we are making a mistake if we give him a big extension but if he gives us a big discount allowing us to upgrade the team he might be the best option.  I would still draft a good QB if one drops to us.  This all comes down to more variables than is Carr better than MM or Jimmy G.  Also a better QB might not be better for your team.  Carr might be a good fit for McDaniels system but I did not think he was a good fit for Gruden's.  Most of this will come down to how well he fts the system and how much he signs for vs what we could get in a trade.

[FloydFan]

This is kind of a nonstarter because this QB crop is awful, and it is not the time to put faith in it.  I don't think there should be a true first round grade on any QB in this class.  If you have to make that move at some point, wait until a better class that inspires confidence.  If they chose to do it this year, I'd have some serious concern about the new regime's ability to evaluate talent.

[BobbyPhil1781]

23 minutes ago, BayRaider said:

I don’t think anyone was debating if they are better than Carr. I think the debate was Jimmy 25M vs Carr 40M or Mariota 15M and draft a QB in the 1st vs Carr 40M. I would not be opposed to option #2 but I would not downgrade to Jimmy just for 15M in savings. 

You are right, we are likely rolling with Carr for another two seasons. It’ll be similar to Shanahan/Jimmy where Kyle realizes he can’t win with Jimmy in the playoffs. Then we’ll probably trade Carr after two years once he falters in the playoffs in back to back years. That’s what I see happening, anyways. 

I’d prefer to not go through that and find a solution at QB now, but McDaniels and Ziegler realize they have to solidfy their job first with a couple winning seasons before they gamble at QB. Just like Kyle and Lynch did. They proved they were for real, and could gamble on QB without getting fired shortly after. Same with McVay. 

I'm going to suggest Carr is getting $40 mill until he does. Even then, I'll still take him over the scenarios what you suggest bc he gives us the best chance to win and honestly, that dollar amount, to me, is on par with how much better he is than both of them. 

I'd prefer we find the QB of the future as well and I'm not sure that is Carr. I'd lean towards it's not him though. Unfortunately the hand dealt this year doesn't look to have that card. Next year though, looks far more promising. 

Edited February 20, 2022 by BobbyPhil1781

[BobbyPhil1781]

20 minutes ago, drfrey13 said:

Nobody wants to get rid of Carr and go with MM or Jimmy G long term.  We are talking about taking a chance on drafting a QB and using Jimmy G or MM as a bridge.  None of us said we hate Carr.  I have said he is not good enough to win a championship without having a great team around him.  I want to upgrade at the position and would probably feel the same way if Stafford was our QB.  I do like Stafford's mentality more than Carr's but I would not say there is a big difference between the 2 overall.  I do think we are making a mistake if we give him a big extension but if he gives us a big discount allowing us to upgrade the team he might be the best option.  I would still draft a good QB if one drops to us.  This all comes down to more variables than is Carr better than MM or Jimmy G.  Also a better QB might not be better for your team.  Carr might be a good fit for McDaniels system but I did not think he was a good fit for Gruden's.  Most of this will come down to how well he fts the system and how much he signs for vs what we could get in a trade.

There's a lot of people that hate Carr. Not suggesting y'all but they do exist and there's a very large group of them. 

Normally I'd be on board with your scenario except this QB class is trash. Literally might be 2013 bad or worse. There's also the fact that with all the **** that went down, he still, under immense pressure, did his part to lead this team to the playoffs and we almost got a road playoff win. Why move backwards when we took many steps forward and got a much better offensive-minded coach? Let's see what McD can do with Carr and maybe you'll be surprised. I doubt we extend him more than 3 years ago if it doesn't work, it won't bea decade down the line until we move on. 

[FloydFan]

Just now, BobbyPhil1781 said:

There's a lot of people that hate Carr. Not suggesting y'all but they do exist and there's a very large group of them. 

Normally I'd be on board with your scenario except this QB class is trash. Literally might be 2013 bad or worse. There's also the fact that with all the **** that went down, he still, under immense pressure, did his part to lead this team to the playoffs and we almost got a road playoff win. Why move backwards when we took many steps forward and got a much better offensive-minded coach? Let's see what McD can do with Carr and maybe you'll be surprised. I doubt we extend him more than 3 years ago if it doesn't work, it won't bea decade down the line until we move on. 

He's also a really great fit for McD's scheme. Like they have the potential to be very good together.

[BayRaider]

9 minutes ago, FloydFan said:

This is kind of a nonstarter because this QB crop is awful, and it is not the time to put faith in it.  I don't think there should be a true first round grade on any QB in this class.  If you have to make that move at some point, wait until a better class that inspires confidence.  If they chose to do it this year, I'd have some serious concern about the new regime's ability to evaluate talent.

You’re likely looking at no QB this year but likely a QB in the 1st next year anything short of a Super Bowl Appearance or Carr Top 2-3 MVP vote. So my bet is Carr is our QB two seasons, one of those seasons having a young QB on the bench. Then he will be traded with one year remaining on his deal. 

Coaches know they have to prove themself first before gambling at QB. Basically for enough job security that they can take a gamble at the position and get rid of a more average or somewhat above-average starter. 

[Frankie2Gunz]

58 minutes ago, drfrey13 said:

MM only has decent mobility?  That is like me saying Allen has decent arm strength.  MM is not LJ but he is far better than decent.  MM is finally healthy but the team has refused to give him PT even when the season was over in 2020.  You have no clue what he can do beyond the Chargers game and the few plays he gets throughout the year.  For coming off the bench he has looked better than decent overall.  There is no evidence that he would be a good QB or a bum now that he is healthy.  I do believe he would be closer to if not better than his 2016 form.

There is 5 years of film on MM and you bring up the Chargers game?  He was the QB of the Titans,clearly holding them back as he was an atrocious Qb for them.  No arm, inaccurate and couldn't read a D for his life. 

You want a list of QB's who are without question better than Carr...  You have 4.  Mahomes, Allen, Wilson and Arod.  Carr is in the next trier of QB's, JM and Ziegler know what they have and is why they not only accepted the job but are locking him up with an extension. 

Sorry to burst your bubble but there is no chance we draft a QB in the 1st round this year....  We are locking Carr up just like I said we would do

[BayRaider]

1 minute ago, Frankie2Gunz said:

There is 5 years of film on MM and you bring up the Chargers game?  He was the QB of the Titans,clearly holding them back as he was an atrocious Qb for them.  No arm, inaccurate and couldn't read a D for his life. 

You want a list of QB's who are without question better than Carr...  You have 4.  Mahomes, Allen, Wilson and Arod.  Carr is in the next trier of QB's, JM and Ziegler know what they have and is why they not only accepted the job but are locking him up with an extension. 

Sorry to burst your bubble but there is no chance we draft a QB in the 1st round this year....  We are locking Carr up just like I said we would do

“Locking him up” in the way being reported only ensures he is our starter for another two seasons. It would be a three year deal, one already including 2022. Once he is in his final year, he’ll be trade-able. He is going to have to light the world on fire, both seasons, if he wants stay here actual “long term”. 

If they were actually committing long term they’d give him a 4+ year extension. 

[FloydFan]

8 minutes ago, BayRaider said:

You’re likely looking at no QB this year but likely a QB in the 1st next year anything short of a Super Bowl Appearance or Carr Top 2-3 MVP vote. So my bet is Carr is our QB two seasons, one of those seasons having a young QB on the bench. Then he will be traded with one year remaining on his deal. 

Coaches know they have to prove themself first before gambling at QB. Basically for enough job security that they can take a gamble at the position and get rid of a more average or somewhat above-average starter. 

If they miss the playoffs this year, I'll be more amenable to drafting a first round QB. I just think we need to give this a good try because I do believe Carr was a selling point to McD and Ziegler. There are also no real upgrades that wouldn't cost a full mortgage this year in my eyes.

[drfrey13]

20 minutes ago, BobbyPhil1781 said:

There's a lot of people that hate Carr. Not suggesting y'all but they do exist and there's a very large group of them. 

Normally I'd be on board with your scenario except this QB class is trash. Literally might be 2013 bad or worse. There's also the fact that with all the **** that went down, he still, under immense pressure, did his part to lead this team to the playoffs and we almost got a road playoff win. Why move backwards when we took many steps forward and got a much better offensive-minded coach? Let's see what McD can do with Carr and maybe you'll be surprised. I doubt we extend him more than 3 years ago if it doesn't work, it won't bea decade down the line until we move on. 

I can understand your point of view and it could work out.  I think a lot will come done to how the other variables play out.  If he does get a big extension the only way the new FO/HC do not look bad is if we win the division and/or win a couple playoff games.  Giving Carr a big extension and failing will look just as bad as drafting a bust at QB.  

[BobbyPhil1781]

54 minutes ago, FloydFan said:

He's also a really great fit for McD's scheme. Like they have the potential to be very good together.

Agreed. I'm pretty excited to see what the two can do assuming he is QB 1 when we start this thing. I believe he will be but we'll see. 

[BobbyPhil1781]

7 minutes ago, drfrey13 said:

I can understand your point of view and it could work out.  I think a lot will come done to how the other variables play out.  If he does get a big extension the only way the new FO/HC do not look bad is if we win the division and/or win a couple playoff games.  Giving Carr a big extension and failing will look just as bad as drafting a bust at QB.  

I can't disagree here. I don't think his extension will be a big one, initially. If he does get a few years and takes steps forward this season, I could see it getting bigger though

[drfrey13]

40 minutes ago, Frankie2Gunz said:

There is 5 years of film on MM and you bring up the Chargers game?  He was the QB of the Titans,clearly holding them back as he was an atrocious Qb for them.  No arm, inaccurate and couldn't read a D for his life. 

You want a list of QB's who are without question better than Carr...  You have 4.  Mahomes, Allen, Wilson and Arod.  Carr is in the next trier of QB's, JM and Ziegler know what they have and is why they not only accepted the job but are locking him up with an extension. 

Sorry to burst your bubble but there is no chance we draft a QB in the 1st round this year....  We are locking Carr up just like I said we would do

I said nothing about drafting a QB in the first.  What I have said is under the right circumstances I move on from Carr.  Why is that so hard to understand?

On the subject of MM he had a similar to season to Carr in 2016 and also broke his ankle just a couple hours apart from Carr.  He had a bad year coming off the injury and in week 1 in 2018 he suffered a nerve injury in his throwing elbow.  The video posted on this sight a while ago broke down the timeline and impact of the injuries.  It also showed how his play has improved since coming to the Raiders.  

[BayRaider]

8 minutes ago, drfrey13 said:

Giving Carr a big extension and failing will look just as bad as drafting a bust at QB.  

Agreed. People act like Carr is some proven long-term 7-8 year future commodity. Like you said, it looks just as bad if we keep him and he fails, compared to drafting one and failing. 
 

Also, they are playing it smart. Adding two years to his contract only ensures he’s our starter for the 2022 and 2023 seasons, far from long term. He’ll be under contract for 2024, but QB’s are easily trade-able in their final year.