Dark Souls Mafia - GAME OVER - BOSSES WIN!!

[SwAg]

16 minutes ago, The Orca said:

Someone wanna touch/tackle this?

I don’t know what there is to address here.  I understand the sentiment that it feels like a popularity contest at times, particularly on D1, but I don’t get that sense.  To me, it always seems like more of a sliding scale of influence and credibility.  No one is absolved of risk by some de facto process, but others are certainly more precariously places than others.

You know, certain people might be more inclined to allow some people more rope to hang themselves than others, but there is an informal balancing that occurs.  These people have heightened expectations, draw an inherent mistrust as the game progresses, and are larger targets for night actions.  However, the reluctance to remove certain people early is based on several factors, at least from my perspective.  I will use myself as an example.

First, I will do the work that others are unwilling to do.  I will spend the extra hours reading and compiling information to inform my actions and the discussion.  I have a process that I often demonstrate and is verifiable.  If there is ever an illogical assumption or omission, it is there to be scrutinized.  I often provide a snapshot of my view of the game, and update it to demonstrate an abstract progression of my thoughts, etc.

Second, and I have played consistently well, even very well.  I mean, I don’t think anyone is counting, but I have like ten or eleven (it’s eleven) MVP / Best Player awards since arriving twenty-one months ago.  So, to some players, I am sure they view me as having earned their ear more so than others.

Third, and this segues from the last two points, is that players are generally more humble than you would imagine.  This is significant for two reasons.  One, it is very unlikely that anyone will finesse me on D1, and locking horns with me on D1 is not conducive to survival unless you have a perfect analysis that I cannot explain away.  So, as a matter of self-preservation, it is avoided. Two, based on the preceding factors, I doubt many would find the risk calculus for eliminating me on D1 based on a less-than-ideal read, or what can never amount to more than speculation, is the prudent path forward.  I dislike absolutes, but I am fairly confident there will never be a time where I am the best option based solely on the thread.

So, the latter two points are ego stroking, but true.  You cannot assess D1 events in a vacuum.  There is a degree of influence and risk assessment that everyone should consider, and that is influenced by the body of work you present and how it’s perceived.  There is typically going to be someone who has earned less good-faith who has a similar or worse error early, and the risk calculus leans toward them.

Plus, I mean, I was lynched on D1 after the game I threw.  Malfatron has seen an early exit multiple times, D1 or D2 lynches are not an infrequent occurrence for him.  Just a lot of those instances are an intersection of the atypical D1 lynchee having some error or issue that happens to be the biggest blunder for that phase.

[SwAg]

25 minutes ago, Counselor said:

My real question for you all is. Are you a back, stomach, or side sleeper. And if side which side? 

Left side onto stomach 

[Blue]

6 minutes ago, The Orca said:

If I can show you evidence where "feuds ended" when the opposing party "changed" would that change your opinion?

Also, I am changing. If I dont talk, people will be happy. That's my take now 

No.

As long as you're still having fun playing the game and you're actively avoiding making it personal, do what you gotta do, my man.

5 minutes ago, Pickle Rick said:

Thats the thing.....

95% of the problems are all reactions to us from attacks (perceived or otherwise) by the masses.  

So are you saying I have to be abused and take it? (I know it's not but that is really what you just suggested)

I think you two need to work on identifying when things are actually attacks vs. someone just playing the game. In fact, I think you two are too quick to take comments or observations personally. The mods telling you to cut it out is a golden opportunity for you to agree to drop it and put the pressure on the other person to do the same so neither one of you comes out looking like the bad guy. Y'all typically haven't done that, in my experience, without some sort of side comment about how you don't think you did anything wrong.

[The Orca]

46 minutes ago, The Orca said:

I get that perspective, but there is no getting past it unless you accept there is no cheating and the "trust" is no different than what other people have with other posters. Counselor and Mwil trust each other no matter what, @bcb1213 got the entire BDL to vote me one game on a silent "fake invest" cause they were the BdL. No one will vote Swag or Touch D1, Racks just follows Swags vote 90% of the time etc (I can go on for pages with this stuff). What's the difference? Imo there is none. I just wont vote Pickle D1. Mwil wont vote like 10 people D1. People wont vote Swag D1 cause he is good. These perspectives and biases and viewpoints are seen in everything and are part of the game. How can we change it other than only 1 of us play?

Thanks for posting @SwAg, but you didnt tackle the issue contained in the post but rather as it pertains to you, which I agree some people feel that way when it comes to you

[Ragnarok]

1 hour ago, Pickle Rick said:

I agree.  You also have to look at what mwil is saying as he tries to get us lynched and or killed (some of these may or may not have been him but they absolutely have been used/said)

"They are fail town"

"Worst players ever"

"Town is better without them"

"The real game can begin once they are dead"

"The game is better without them"

"If they are the vig, town is doomed" (could have been swag or dome)

"Good riddance, we dont need them"

I can go on for days.  

 

You all really think those type of statements are gonna be greeted with a smile.  

 

Matts suggested conforming a little bit to appease the masses.  Why don't the masses look in the mirror before they ask for conformity 

(To be fair I'm also one to burn everything to the ground before I conform even a little lol).

______

Then you look at this current situation.  @The Orca and I are gonna play like everyone else.....not post jack squat this next game.  Then people are up in arms bc we are gonna do that.  Its bc they know we drive activity, we drive the post count, we are vital to the game whether they like it or not.  

I guarantee you that if we do what we want this next game, it will be 150 pages or less and days with very few posts.  But hey, that's what the masses want, that's what the masses get.  

I've had all those things said about me as well.  The difference lies is saying that those things are due to reasons outside the game or within the confines of the game.

1 hour ago, The Orca said:

@Ragnarok and @theuntouchable this is also a large reason for the gloating during and post game 

Some gloating is fine.  That said, I have seen yall take credit for things that I don't know you really earned.  But I'm sure we've all done that at some point.

1 hour ago, The Orca said:

I get that perspective, but there is no getting past it unless you accept there is no cheating and the "trust" is no different than what other people have with other posters. Counselor and Mwil trust each other no matter what, @bcb1213 got the entire BDL to vote me one game on a silent "fake invest" cause they were the BdL. No one will vote Swag or Touch D1, Racks just follows Swags vote 90% of the time etc (I can go on for pages with this stuff). What's the difference? Imo there is none. I just wont vote Pickle D1. Mwil wont vote like 10 people D1. People wont vote Swag D1 cause he is good. These perspectives and biases and viewpoints are seen in everything and are part of the game. How can we change it other than only 1 of us play?

Oh, I trust y'all completely.  I don't think you cheat at all.

The point here, from what I've seen, is that if someone makes a case against one of you, the other is going to come in to defend.  And if you make a case against someone, the other will support that case.  It almost always happens.  If I defend someone in thread, it's for game reasons I can at least partially explain.  What yall do doesn't come across that way all the time, so it looks like you're just defending/supporting each other because you're twins.

[Daboyle]

30 minutes ago, Counselor said:

My real question for you all is. Are you a back, stomach, or side sleeper. And if side which side? 

I'm a side sleeper. I usually end up sleeping on my left side.

[Blue]

I for one hate policy lynches on D1 and have for a long time. More often than not it ends up being a perceived "weaker" player with a power role.

Exceptions are made for players who I know are going to throw or troll the game, because that **** isn't fun for me to deal with. I don't think Pickle Rick or Orca are the type to do either unless their role(s) require them to.

[Ragnarok]

15 minutes ago, JoshstraDaymus said:

Right side. I’m fairly certain that stomach sleepers are natural murderers. I can sleep on my left too but I snore and it gets in my fiancées ear.

I'm a stomach sleeper.

[Pickle Rick]

1 minute ago, Blue said:

No.

As long as you're still having fun playing the game and you're actively avoiding making it personal, do what you gotta do, my man.

I think you two need to work on identifying when things are actually attacks vs. someone just playing the game. In fact, I think you two are too quick to take comments or observations personally. The mods telling you to cut it out is a golden opportunity for you to agree to drop it and put the pressure on the other person to do the same so neither one of you comes out looking like the bad guy. Y'all typically haven't done that, in my experience, without some sort of side comment about how you don't think you did anything wrong.

This is part of our argument.  No mod has told me to cut anything out (except for using buttercup).  

You just made it seem like they have when in fact they have not.  

I have expressed this in multiple forms of medium....

You all (everyone) want something to change or to stop, say it.  Don't be vague.  Don't go to the mods.  Don't quit.  Say something (preferably via PM but whatever at this point)

 

[bucsfan333]

2 minutes ago, Ragnarok said:

I'm a stomach sleeper.

Same.

[SwAg]

17 minutes ago, Blue said:

 

 

Tk3 explained this rather succinctly with the bolded part. The way you are phrasing what you are saying now--"don't lump us together or attack both of us," "people will get their wish," "I don't agree that people need to change," "why don't the masses look in the mirror," "whether they like it or not"--makes it clear that you think the problem is with everyone else and they're the ones who need to change, not you. That's not true, and the fact that literally no one else is taking your side on it should be a wake-up call to the both of you.

I think the masses have looked in the mirror, or at least I have noticed people acting differently.  I take no responsibility, but my italicized takeaway from my long post was not a targeted criticism.  It was a tactic that is effective, but engenders spite, frustration, and anger.  I know it’s effective because I have used it very effectively.  And I have taken that tool out of my toolbox.  I haven’t really seen others use it, even in a significantly diminished capacity.

For example, Ragnarok used to accuse me of being obsessed with him any time I would accuse him.  That is a significantly diminished example of pushing character into the consideration, and is arguably related because it is allegedly an observed pattern of behavior.  But, no big deal, as it is clearly untrue if you ignore my diary where I write his name in curly letters thousands of times.  Uhh, anyway, he has not done that, and I’ve noticed that, and I think it’s a good example, as it is in a similar vein to the “vendetta” rhetoric issue.

[SwAg]

8 minutes ago, The Orca said:

Thanks for posting @SwAg, but you didnt tackle the issue contained in the post but rather as it pertains to you, which I agree some people feel that way when it comes to you

Well, I don’t know what the issue is.  I read that as a list of examples of what you think is unfair, and I tried to explain the abstract factors, then use myself as an example.

[The Orca]

1 minute ago, Ragnarok said:

I've had all those things said about me as well.  The difference lies is saying that those things are due to reasons outside the game or within the confines of the game.

Some gloating is fine.  That said, I have seen yall take credit for things that I don't know you really earned.  But I'm sure we've all done that at some point.

Oh, I trust y'all completely.  I don't think you cheat at all.

The point here, from what I've seen, is that if someone makes a case against one of you, the other is going to come in to defend.  And if you make a case against someone, the other will support that case.  It almost always happens.  If I defend someone in thread, it's for game reasons I can at least partially explain.  What yall do doesn't come across that way all the time, so it looks like you're just defending/supporting each other because you're twins.

Thanks for replying

This game contradicts this...I tried to get Hobo lynched almost all game and he was Masons with Pickle...even with Pickle saying or hinting he had info that Hobo was town I still went at hobo. If the above is the case can you explain that?

I literally dont agree with Pickle most of the time, now if I think he is town (again I can read him better than most imo) I will defend him, just like you would defend Whicker or Touch if you had a solid read they are town. How can we get past the perception other than only 1 of us a play a game?

If people didnt routinely and word for word try to lynch one of us each day 1 saying we got to split them up, things would be different imo

 I had a solid read on Pickle this game, am I suppose to just let him die as town to get rid of the perception? The moment I do people lynch me cause they think I'm scum...it has happened. It's a no win scenario if people keep the mindset they have

 

[Pickle Rick]

2 minutes ago, The Orca said:

The moment I do people lynch me cause they think I'm scum...it has happened. It's a no win scenario if people keep the mindset they have

It literally has happened @Ragnarok

I let orca die d1 on a split vote and got killed bc it

"Pickle would never let orca die if he were town"

[SwAg]

11 minutes ago, Blue said:

I for one hate policy lynches on D1 and have for a long time. More often than not it ends up being a perceived "weaker" player with a power role.

Exceptions are made for players who I know are going to throw or troll the game, because that **** isn't fun for me to deal with. I don't think Pickle Rick or Orca are the type to do either unless their role(s) require them to.

yeah yeah whatever