Compare the 2004 Eagles to the 2019 Chiefs

[onejayhawk]

These are Andy Reid's two SB teams.

The 2004 Eagles had a stout defense. There was a very good pass rush, the best secondary in Eagles history and Jeremiah Trotter in the middle. The offense was built around Donovan McNabb, Brian Westbrook and the newly arrived Terrell Owens. It may have been Reid's best offense prior to Mahomes. I will not belabor the Chiefs of last season, since they are fresh in everyone's memory.

One thing I find interesting is that in 2003, the Eagles had a three headed monster at RB, not unlike the Chiefs last season. Even more, a nondescript group of WR was galvanized by an All-Pro season from TO, who caught 14 of McNabb's 31 TD.

Another interesting aspect is to look at the games where Mahomes was out or part speed. They lost to a Titans team the destroyed in the playoffs, partly because Mahomes was a statue. The week before, the Chiefs defeated the Vikings with Matt Moore behind center. The game featured the much watched 91 yard TD run by Damien Williams, where the only player that could catch him was Tyreek Hill. Moore threw for 275 yds, 1 TD, 0 Int. Less noted is that the Chiefs' porous run defense stuffed league leading RB Dalvin Cook for 71 yards. The much maligned run defense was big in all three postseason games. 

What do you all think?

J

 

[JAF-N72EX]

1 hour ago, onejayhawk said:

Another interesting aspect is to look at the games where Mahomes was out or part speed. They lost to a Titans team the destroyed in the playoffs, partly because Mahomes was a statue.

Just to note. McNabb played alot of games too while he was injured and this often hindered his play as well. I don't really remember the NFCC game that well to know whether this was the case then but I remember him soldiering through a ton of games in his career.

IIRC, It was mainly McNair and McNabb ---two dual threat QB's-- that started the whole notion as to why there is always a risk in relying on QB's who also depend on their legs.

[TecmoSuperJoe]

Just for fun, here are the Reid's Eagles teams' DVOA from 2000 to 2004:

2000: 16.3% 8th

2001: 27.3% 1st

2002: 23.6% 5th

2003: 19.6% 6th

2004: 23.7% 5th

The last two seasons in KC:

2018: 32.9% 1st

2019: 30.2% 3rd

 

[TecmoSuperJoe]

17 minutes ago, JustAnotherFan said:

Just to note. McNabb played alot of games too while he was injured and this often hindered his play as well. I don't really remember the NFCC game that well to know whether this was the case then but I remember him soldiering through a ton of games in his career.

IIRC, It was mainly McNair and McNabb ---two dual threat QB's-- that started the whole notion as to why there is always a risk in relying on QB's who also depend on their legs.

Running QBs that can cause damage through the sky or the ground had been around a while longer than that. Steve Young and Randall Cunningham in the late 80s into the 90s, John Elway in the 80s, Roger Staubach in the 70s, etc. 

[JAF-N72EX]

1 minute ago, PapaShogun said:

Running QBs that can cause damage through the sky or the ground had been around a while longer than that. Steve Young and Randall Cunningham in the late 80s into the 90s, John Elway in the 80s, Roger Staubach in the 70s, etc. 

I didn't say there weren't other running QBs.

[TecmoSuperJoe]

13 minutes ago, JustAnotherFan said:

I didn't say there weren't other running QBs.

Right...but you were pushing the idea that McNair and McNabb started the potential threat of quarterbacks that can cause damage in both ways. I gave other examples to dispel that belief. 

[JAF-N72EX]

9 minutes ago, PapaShogun said:

Right...but you were pushing the idea that McNair and McNabb started the potential threat of quarterbacks that can cause damage in both ways. I gave other examples to dispel that belief. 

What? No. You completely mis-read my post entirely. Read it again. All of it. 

I did not push the idea that McNair and McNabb started the whole idea that QB's can be a threat as a runner and a passer.

I said they started the idea that QB's who rely on their legs are an injury risk. McNabb, McNair, and Vick (who I left out) were all 3 playing around that time and all three of them had issues with staying healthy but still played through injuries. 

EDIT: And just to further clarify. Around that time, there was always a debate about which was a better--a pocket passer or a dual threat?

Edited May 17, 2020 by JustAnotherFan

[Hunter2_1]

I think whichever one you put Mahomes on would win. He's like the holy grail that Reid has finally found for his vision of offense.

[TecmoSuperJoe]

2 hours ago, JustAnotherFan said:

What? No. You completely mis-read my post entirely. Read it again. All of it. 

I did not push the idea that McNair and McNabb started the whole idea that QB's can be a threat as a runner and a passer.

I said they started the idea that QB's who rely on their legs are an injury risk. McNabb, McNair, and Vick (who I left out) were all 3 playing around that time and all three of them had issues with staying healthy but still played through injuries. 

EDIT: And just to further clarify. Around that time, there was always a debate about which was a better--a pocket passer or a dual threat?

Oh I see what you were saying. No wonder that sounded weird. That rhetoric I could probably get on board with.  

[ET80]

6 hours ago, PapaShogun said:

Running QBs that can cause damage through the sky or the ground had been around a while longer than that. Steve Young and Randall Cunningham in the late 80s into the 90s, John Elway in the 80s, Roger Staubach in the 70s, etc. 

Ultimately, I think you end up proving his point - it isn't like these guys missed a ton of games due to their running style.

[RBreezy]

How does Mahomes handle the blitz? I assume well because he’s a great player. But facing the early 2000’s Eagles was always a nightmare for opposing QB’s. Great defensive lines, stout linebackers, and a filthy secondary with 2-3 pro bowlers in it at a time (first it was Troy Vincent/Bobby Taylor/Dawkins and then Lito Shepherd/Sheldon Brown/Dawkins). Jim Johnson’s scheme was so multi-faceted - he would blitz often but with many different looks. The best way to combat it was to run screens often.

[onejayhawk]

7 hours ago, PapaShogun said:

Just for fun, here are the Reid's Eagles teams' DVOA from 2000 to 2004:

2000: 16.3% 8th

2001: 27.3% 1st

2002: 23.6% 5th

2003: 19.6% 6th

2004: 23.7% 5th

The last two seasons in KC:

2018: 32.9% 1st

2019: 30.2% 3rd

 

Last year was freaky for DVOA. Baltimore was 1st with 41.8%, extremely high, but there were five teams over 25%. For comparison,  New England led the league in 2016 with 24.9% and Dallas was the only other team over 20%. For their last championship, NE was 7th with 17.8%

As a statistician, I would have to say that DVOA is too volatile to be a good metric, but it is an interesting point. 

J

[PatriotsWin!]

Reid is a QB genius, no doubt. I see the similarities on offense but I think the Chiefs are just barely more talented. Eagles in 04 (particularly TO) were scary good tho.

[onejayhawk]

34 minutes ago, RBreezy said:

How does Mahomes handle the blitz? I assume well because he’s a great player. But facing the early 2000’s Eagles was always a nightmare for opposing QB’s. Great defensive lines, stout linebackers, and a filthy secondary with 2-3 pro bowlers in it at a time (first it was Troy Vincent/Bobby Taylor/Dawkins and then Lito Shepherd/Sheldon Brown/Dawkins). Jim Johnson’s scheme was so multi-faceted - he would blitz often but with many different looks. The best way to combat it was to run screens often.

The Giants proved in 2007 that even Brady can be handled by bringing enough pressure. 

To answer to how well Mahomes handles the blitz. Watch the Super Bowl. It was not one of Mahomes good games, but it also shows how he adjusted. The thing that he lacked last season was a true compliment to the vertical receivers. Kelce was a monster in the middle depth but, since Hunt was thrown out, there was no RB who scared you in the flat. That may have changed with the addition of Clyde Edwards-Helaire. Think of McNabb and Brian Westbrook. 

J

[Chiefer]

On 5/17/2020 at 6:47 AM, RBreezy said:

How does Mahomes handle the blitz? I assume well because he’s a great player. But facing the early 2000’s Eagles was always a nightmare for opposing QB’s. Great defensive lines, stout linebackers, and a filthy secondary with 2-3 pro bowlers in it at a time (first it was Troy Vincent/Bobby Taylor/Dawkins and then Lito Shepherd/Sheldon Brown/Dawkins). Jim Johnson’s scheme was so multi-faceted - he would blitz often but with many different looks. The best way to combat it was to run screens often.

He handles the blitz very well, teams often blitzed him in 2018 and learned that was a mistake very quickly. Now people just try to drop everybody in coverage and hope the front four gets to him fast enough.