incognito_man Posted October 3, 2017 Share Posted October 3, 2017 2 hours ago, skibrett15 said: So the guy with career 69% catch percentage has bad hands? I think it's well proven that YAC is more a product of QB play than receiver play, though there are a few notable exceptions of receivers like Brandon Lloyd who just catch it and fall down. Even so, he has more YAC per reception than Nelson does over the past 2 years. For both, it's hard to generate YAC when you just catch the ball in the endzone all day... Diggs is not a nice player. He's the best skill position player in the NFC North. I'd expect capers to give him the ODB/Julio Jones treatment. And that would be the best compliment anyone can pay him. I don't know, you tell me. I asked what his drop% was, not what his catch rate was (and how that compares to every WR, a CR by itself is pretty meaningless). Just looked it up and in 2016 Diggs has 3.5 YAC/rec to Jordy's 3.9 YAC/rec, so not sure what stats you found on that. And speaking of catching the ball in the end zone...Jordy has 19 TDs the last 2 seasons to Diggs' 7. Is Diggs even better than his teammate Thielen for that matter? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skibrett15 Posted October 3, 2017 Share Posted October 3, 2017 according to this you have them reversed? https://www.sportingcharts.com/nfl/stats/yards-after-the-catch/2016/ 1 minute ago, incognito_man said: Is Diggs even better than his teammate Thielen for that matter? pass on the obvious bait. From what I can tell diggs has 2 drops this season. To me, drops over time are the same outcome as a covered guy who forces his qb to throw it in there and it gets broken up. Feels worse, but at least the guy got open. Likewise, it looks really cool when a guy wins a jump ball, but it's just as good as a guy who creates separation and makes an easy catch as a result. Big picture, diggs is a 69% catch rate at 12.7 y/r and 5.3 r/g Catch rate is meaningless in a vacuum, but 69 is high, although mitigated by a lower y/r. Here's a sampling of quality receivers over their first 3 years, bonus points if you can name some of the players without looking: http://pfref.com/tiny/5KVfl Rk Player From To Cmp Att Yds TD Int Sk Yds Att Yds TD Rec Yds TD 1 Redacted 2010 2012 0.0 0.1 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.4 1.7 0.0 4.0 54.3 0.2 2 Redacted 1994 1996 0.0 0.0 0.3 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.1 0.5 0.0 5.1 77.1 0.5 3 Diggs 2015 2017 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.3 0.7 0.0 5.3 67.1 0.4 4 Redacted 2006 2008 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 4.1 66.1 0.6 5 Redacted 2007 2009 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.3 2.8 0.0 4.3 68.2 0.5 6 Redacted 2010 2012 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.1 0.2 0.0 4.0 61.3 0.4 And over their first 4 years... every player improved except player 2 who was already the best. Rk Player From To Cmp Att Yds TD Int Sk Yds Att Yds TD Rec Yds TD 1 Redacted 2010 2013 0.0 0.1 0.3 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.1 0.4 1.3 0.0 4.8 65.9 0.3 2 Redacted 1994 1997 0.0 0.0 0.3 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.1 0.4 0.0 5.0 75.1 0.5 3 Stefon Diggs 2015 2017 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.3 0.7 0.0 5.3 67.1 0.4 4 Redacted 2006 2009 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 4.2 67.1 0.5 5 Redacted 2007 2010 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.3 2.6 0.0 4.5 69.9 0.6 6 Redacted 2010 2013 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.1 0.1 0.0 4.5 69.8 0.6 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
squire12 Posted October 3, 2017 Share Posted October 3, 2017 @skibrett15 how did you settle on comparing those 6 players? Was it first 3 years catch %? Some other metric? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skibrett15 Posted October 3, 2017 Share Posted October 3, 2017 Most are same body types, but 2 are taller/bigger, similar reception totals, similar y/g, all modern era players who are recognizable and would be considered "way better" than Diggs by this group. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wgbeethree Posted October 3, 2017 Share Posted October 3, 2017 Obviously its a curse you love to have but...... Yes! The QBs tend to get all the credit often causing the rest of the team to be underrated. For example.... The top ten QBs all time in career passer rating have 19 Super Bowl appearances between them. In 15 of those 19 appearances (79%) their teams had top 10 scoring defenses. In 11 of those 19 appearances (58%) their teams had top 5 scoring defenses. So there are just 4 exceptions of the Top 10 all time leaders needing/having a top defense to help get to the Super Bowl. That's pretty clear evidence in my opinion that those quarterbacks aren't getting there by themselves. BUT WAIT THERES MORE!!!! Those exceptions.... the 2006 Colts, the 2009 Saints, the 2011 Patriots, and the 2013 Broncos. Despite not having Top 10 regular season defenses those 4 teams combined gave up an average of 17 points per game in their playoff wins. 2006 Colts - 16.3 PPG - Good for 4th in regular season 2009 Saints - 19.7 PPG- Good for 11th in regular season 2011 Patriots - 15 PPG- Good for 3rd in regular season 2013 Broncos - 16.5 PPG- Good for 3rd in regular season That takes it to...... 18/19 appearances (95%) had a top 10 (or playoff equivalent) scoring defense. 14/19 appearances (74%) had a top 5 (or playoff equivalent ) scoring defense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wgbeethree Posted October 3, 2017 Share Posted October 3, 2017 I'll take it one step further with the QBs with multiple rings..... Scoring defense rank for super bowl win seasons.... Brady (1, 1, 2, 6, 8) Bradshaw (1, 1, 2, 8) Montana (1, 2, 3, 8) Aikman (2, 3, 5) Elway (6, 8) P. Manning (4, 23) Roethlisberger (1, 3) E. Manning (17, 25) 21 of the 24 having top 10 defenses. The three that weren't? Well we already discussed P. Manning's "asterisk" in my last post. Anyone want to take a wild guess at Eli's? His defense gave up 14 and 16.3 PPG in those playoffs which both would have ranked 1st in the league. 24 of 24!!!!!!! EDIT: Looks like I forgot some people so I'll go full Super Bowl era. Bart Starr (1,4) Phil Simms (1, 2) Bob Griese (1,1) Rodger Staubach (7,8) Jim Plunkett (10, 13). Plunkett ruins the perfect score!!!!! Oh wait! His team gave up 11PPG in the playoffs which would have been good for1st again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Norm Posted October 3, 2017 Share Posted October 3, 2017 As interesting as that post is overall, holy crap Eli. I know they became different in the playoffs but geez. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LargeFarva Posted October 3, 2017 Share Posted October 3, 2017 27 minutes ago, NormSizedMidget said: As interesting as that post is overall, holy crap Eli. I know they became different in the playoffs but geez. 2011 I believe they also had the 32nd ranked rushing offense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
squire12 Posted October 3, 2017 Share Posted October 3, 2017 55 minutes ago, wgbeethree said: I'll take it one step further with the QBs with multiple rings..... Scoring defense rank for super bowl win seasons.... Brady (1, 1, 2, 6, 8) Bradshaw (1, 1, 2, 8) Montana (1, 2, 3, 8) Aikman (2, 3, 5) Elway (6, 8) P. Manning (4, 23) Roethlisberger (1, 3) E. Manning (17, 25) 21 of the 24 having top 10 defenses. The three that weren't? Well we already discussed P. Manning's "asterisk" in my last post. Anyone want to take a wild guess at Eli's? His defense gave up 14 and 16.3 PPG in those playoffs which both would have ranked 1st in the league. 24 of 24!!!!!!! EDIT: Looks like I forgot some people so I'll go full Super Bowl era. Bart Starr (1,4) Phil Simms (1, 2) Bob Griese (1,1) Rodger Staubach (7,8) Jim Plunkett (10, 13). Plunkett ruins the perfect score!!!!! Oh wait! His team gave up 11PPG in the playoffs which would have been good for1st again. All the more reason to continue to invest in the defense via draft, FA, etc. As much as I, and most other GB fans want the unstoppable offense, the saying bears truth....defense wins championships. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Green19 Posted October 3, 2017 Author Share Posted October 3, 2017 12 minutes ago, squire12 said: All the more reason to continue to invest in the defense via draft, FA, etc. As much as I, and most other GB fans want the unstoppable offense, the saying bears truth....defense wins championships. Which was may point earlier in the thread. I think it's interesting media claims our talent level isn't there... I think it is on average with the rest of the league. It's just most of the talent is on the offensive side and goes unnoticed because of Aaron. The other teams they say are better talent wise... all have crazy talented defenses. Aaron can't hide their play... good or bad. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
squire12 Posted October 4, 2017 Share Posted October 4, 2017 Most people's last memory of the GB Packers was a full on woodshed beatdown vs Atlanta in NFCCG. Nelson was hurt, Adams hurt. Lang gone, Cook gone, Lacy gone. Sitton jettisoned before the season. Defense has been scraping by the last few years. On a national scale, only players with recognition are Daniels and maybe HHCD. Matthews is a name but does not garner the respect with lagging sack numbers. Perry signed a big contract, but for most, has had unsustainable production. Peppers is gone. Datone Jones "bust", Randall...looks like a "bust". Those that do not follow GB really close will not see the talent. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
incognito_man Posted October 4, 2017 Share Posted October 4, 2017 19 hours ago, skibrett15 said: according to this you have them reversed? https://www.sportingcharts.com/nfl/stats/yards-after-the-catch/2016/ pass on the obvious bait. From what I can tell diggs has 2 drops this season. To me, drops over time are the same outcome as a covered guy who forces his qb to throw it in there and it gets broken up. Feels worse, but at least the guy got open. Likewise, it looks really cool when a guy wins a jump ball, but it's just as good as a guy who creates separation and makes an easy catch as a result. Big picture, diggs is a 69% catch rate at 12.7 y/r and 5.3 r/g Catch rate is meaningless in a vacuum, but 69 is high, although mitigated by a lower y/r. The source I had found had them as I stated. Closed the tab, don't have it in front of me. Either way, I still think that Diggs is a 'nice' player currently. He has a bright future, unquestionably - but he's not a better WR than Jordy is today. He has some advantages, yes - so does Nelson. Without looking up numbers, I suspect Jordy is better on 3rd downs (getting first downs), better in the red zone and more versatile. He also has a larger catch radius, is unparalleled working the sidelines and is like having a 2nd QB on the field from a defense-reading perspective. Diggs is obviously more sudden, likely better at creating separation, probably has equal hands and has higher top-end speed right now. I still take Jordy 10 times out of 10. Diggs is next in the North, and then Adams/Thielan is a tough one. Depends on who else ya got at the position. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kenrik Posted October 4, 2017 Share Posted October 4, 2017 @wgbeethree It would be amazing if you did the offense with those defenseive rankings... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Norm Posted October 4, 2017 Share Posted October 4, 2017 1 hour ago, LargeFarva said: 2011 I believe they also had the 32nd ranked rushing offense. Yeah I think you're right, then it sort of came alive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Green19 Posted October 4, 2017 Author Share Posted October 4, 2017 Side note on Nelson... Since 2014, Odell Beckham Jr. leads the league with 37 touchdown receptions, Antonio Brown is second with 36, and Jordy Nelson is third with 32. For those playing at home... Jordy missed all of 2015. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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