MVP Watch FINAL RANKINGS (Version 17.0)

[Tk3]

1 minute ago, Shanedorf said:

Aaron Rodgers has more touchdown passes (39) than punter JK Scott has punts (38) in 2020.
Mahomes has 33 TDs and 40 punts for Chiefs

Most bizarre MVP argument I've ever heard

But I don't hate it.....

[Soko]

28 minutes ago, BayRaider said:

You do realize Henry hasn't faced anywhere near the amount of eight man boxes he has in the past now that he has Tannehil as QB right....? Teams massively respect Tannehil.

They help each other just about equally.

Yeah, because they previous QBs he had aren’t starters and there’s actually a threat at the receiver position. I’m not sure about this season, but Henry saw the most stacked defenses in 2019, can’t imagine its too different this year. 

Henry’s never even had a decent QB other than Tannehill. So pointing out Tannehill’s value differential over the previous bad quarterbacks doesn’t mean that he’s helping Henry as much as Henry’s helping him. It just means he’s helping more than, say, Mariota, Gabbert, and Mettenburger...

Edited December 14, 2020 by Yin-Yang

[AFlaccoSeagulls]

12 minutes ago, BayRaider said:

Tannehil is a Top 10 QB in this league. And that is a majority opinion, not a minority opinion. 7-10 range on any list you want to search. And if you rank all 32 starting QB's, no way he gets out of the Top 10, unless you are bias out of your mind.

I'll be doing a 32 Seed QB Tournament after the season to get FF's Official Rankings, which will be fun, so we will decide then.

Even a top-10 QB (and if Tannehill's a top 10 QB it says more about the current state of QB play than anything tbh) doesn't receive the same treatment as the best RB in the NFL. Like...come on lol

But to just take a small step back for a second, Derrick Henry had by far the most carries against stacked boxes last year (244). The next closest was 166: https://www.pff.com/news/nfl-top-runners-stacked-boxes-2019-derrick-henry-lamar-jackson

Last year in the regular season he faced a stacked box on 35% of snaps, which was the 5th highest in the NFL. 63% of the time against BAL in the playoffs, and then 37% of the time against KC in the AFCCG.

This year he's fallen to 29%, which is 13th in the NFL. The point I'm trying to make here is that even with a supposed "top 7 QB", it doesn't seem like teams care that much about Tannehill's ability to beat them through the air vs. Henry on the ground.

[BayRaider]

1 minute ago, AFlaccoSeagulls said:

Even a top-10 QB (and if Tannehill's a top 10 QB it says more about the current state of QB play than anything tbh) doesn't receive the same treatment as the best RB in the NFL. Like...come on lol

But to just take a small step back for a second, Derrick Henry had by far the most carries against stacked boxes last year (244). The next closest was 166: https://www.pff.com/news/nfl-top-runners-stacked-boxes-2019-derrick-henry-lamar-jackson

Last year in the regular season he faced a stacked box on 35% of snaps, which was the 5th highest in the NFL. 63% of the time against BAL in the playoffs, and then 37% of the time against KC in the AFCCG.

This year he's fallen to 29%, which is 13th in the NFL. The point I'm trying to make here is that even with a supposed "top 7 QB", it doesn't seem like teams care that much about Tannehill's ability to beat them through the air vs. Henry on the ground.

So Henry went from 1st to 13th of stacked boxes thanks to Tannehil, good to know. Most of those stacked boxes came against Mariota last year.

[SaveOurSonics]

Is Josh Allen not getting any love in here? 

Nearly 4K total yards + 34 TDs with 3 games to go. Just clinched the division. Staring at a possible 2 seed in the AFC with the way PIT is trending. 

If he can beat Denver, New England, and Miami to close out the year (and performs well) and finish the season 13-3, I think he’s a atop the discussion with Rodgers and Mahomes. 

[Tk3]

2 minutes ago, BayRaider said:

So Henry went from 1st to 13th of stacked boxes thanks to Tannehil, good to know. Most of those stacked boxes came against Mariota last year.

I mean.. nobody is arguing against Tannehill being more dangerous than Mariota

Passing games and running games are complementary, but its very clear to me that Henry's running game is opening up these passing opportunities

Item #1 on an opponents gameplan is "Try to stop Henry", not "Focus on stopping the passing game"

 

[Tk3]

3 minutes ago, SaveOurSonics said:

Is Josh Allen not getting any love in here? 

Nearly 4K total yards + 34 TDs with 3 games to go. Just clinched the division. Staring at a possible 2 seed in the AFC with the way PIT is trending. 

If he can beat Denver, New England, and Miami to close out the year (and performs well) and finish the season 13-3, I think he’s a atop the discussion with Rodgers and Mahomes. 

I will adamantly argue that Josh Allen should be above Russ, but the prevailing Russ opinions run deep and him him in the #3 spot for MOST people

But the reason we aren't really talking about Allen is that this is a two horse race, and he doesn't really belong in that conversation for the 2020 season

[Jakuvious]

People are both underrating Tannehill, and underrating the difference made by a reliable QB, even if he isn't a playmaker on the level of Mahomes/Rodgers/Wilson/Watson/etc. I still remember when Alex Smith turned us around from 2-14 to 11-5. When he doubled Charles's catches, tripled his TD output. And Tannehill is blatantly better than Alex Smith was. A reliable QB, who does not turn the ball over, and makes sound decisions, is a HUGE boon to a RB like Henry, and a team that wants to run that kind of offense. You can't run that offense if you have a QB that throws INTs or isn't going to make good reads at the line. He shifts the Titans from, every opposing team is just focusing on stopping Henry, to now the Titans can punish opposing teams if they still try to just focus on stopping Henry. It's a massive difference.

Does it mean he's MVP? No. Does it mean he's an elite QB? No. But it does mean his play has a massive impact on that team's success.

[Soko]

6 minutes ago, SaveOurSonics said:

Is Josh Allen not getting any love in here? 

Nearly 4K total yards + 34 TDs with 3 games to go. Just clinched the division. Staring at a possible 2 seed in the AFC with the way PIT is trending. 

Haven’t read through most of the thread, but that’s still behind Mahomes. 

Allen - 3,600 passing, 350 rushing, 28 TDs passing, 6 TDs rushing, 9 picks, 8 fumbles, 7.7 YPA, 8.1 AY/A, 10-3 W/L.

Mahomes - 4,200 passing, 250 rushing, 33 TDs passing, 2 TDs rushing, 5 picks, 3 fumbles, 8.5 YPA, 9.3 AY/A, 12-1 W/L. 

Aaron Rodgers same boat but with a little less yards, a bit more TDs. It’s not that Allen isn’t having a phenomenal season, but hard to argue him over Rodgers or Mahomes. Mentioning him seems like one of those “he’s having a good season too, so HM”, which he is, but he’s not really in the conversation IMO. Right now seems like a two horse race.

[Jakuvious]

9 minutes ago, SaveOurSonics said:

Is Josh Allen not getting any love in here? 

Nearly 4K total yards + 34 TDs with 3 games to go. Just clinched the division. Staring at a possible 2 seed in the AFC with the way PIT is trending. 

If he can beat Denver, New England, and Miami to close out the year (and performs well) and finish the season 13-3, I think he’s a atop the discussion with Rodgers and Mahomes. 

Allen's midseason run was far too mediocre. Several games worse than the worst games from Mahomes, and worse than all but one game than Rodgers. That 4 game run where he lost convincingly to Tennessee and KC, and then struggled to put away the Jets and Pats, just dropped him too far.

[Chiefs_5627]

1.Rodgers 

2. Mahomeboy 

------------------------

3. Allen 

4. Russ 

5. King Henry 

I can see just about any argument for switching these around (1-2 and 3-5)

 

Edited December 14, 2020 by Chiefs_5627

[AFlaccoSeagulls]

2 minutes ago, BayRaider said:

So Henry went from 1st to 13th of stacked boxes thanks to Tannehil, good to know. Most of those stacked boxes came against Mariota last year.

He went from 5th to 13th, and that's still with a couple weeks left. I'll just list Henry's week-by-week SB% last year (Tannehill became starter week 7):

Week 1: 48% (3rd highest)

Week 2: 20% 

Week 3: 24%

Week 4: 74%(by far #1)

Week 5: 30%

Week 6: 20%

--- Tannehill named starter ---

Week 7: N/A (?)

Week 8: 31% (7th highest)

Week 9: 54% (4th highest)

Week 10: 17%

Week 11: BYE

Week 12: 32%

Week 13: 15%

Week 14: 72% (somehow 2nd highest to Benny Snell at 81% lol)

Week 15: 52% (3rd highest)

Week 16: N/A (didn't play)

Week 17: 41%

I could go back and tally the average of Weeks 1-6 compared to 7-17, but I think it's pretty obvious that he actually faced more stacked boxes once Tannehill became starter. Can we agree on that?

https://nextgenstats.nfl.com/stats/rushing/2019/REG/17#percent-eight-defenders

[AFlaccoSeagulls]

13 minutes ago, Tk3 said:

I mean.. nobody is arguing against Tannehill being more dangerous than Mariota

Passing games and running games are complementary, but its very clear to me that Henry's running game is opening up these passing opportunities

Item #1 on an opponents gameplan is "Try to stop Henry", not "Focus on stopping the passing game"

Bingo.

[Jakuvious]

5 hours ago, Pugger said:

Is Mahomes the best player in the league or the MVP?   Unfortunately there isn't a distinction on the criteria for this award.  If it is the top player who has the most VALUE to his team then there is no debate here.  Patrick in KC has a far superior supporting cast than Rodgers does in GB but if his team goes 15-1 he will win it no matter what AR does.

I've already responded to you once when you've posted this, and I don't believe you ever replied, unless I missed it, but the difference in weapons is at least mostly offset by the difference in OL play and run game. Our OL was already worse on paper in the offseason, and then LDT and Niang opted out, Rankin got stuck on IR, Osemele went down, Schwartz went down, and Reiter and Remmers have been banged up at various points. On three occasions we've had to signa vet off the street as too many guys were hurt. Our PS UDFA OT had to see snaps at RT against Miami because both Schwartz and Remmers were out. Our interior line was already going to be a weakpoint, and then all the shuffling and losing our best OL and Schwartz has made the OL a huge issue. It's why we can't close out games, because we can't run when teams know we're going to, at all.

Even as far as the weapons go, Watkins has been hurt most of the year (not surprising, but still.) Hill and Adams are about a wash. Hardman and Robinson are useful pieces, but very flawed. The big difference is really just Kelce. Which is a big difference, of course. But the gap in supporting casts is way overstated because it's much easier to see Hill and Kelce, and much harder to notice we're playing Nick Allegretti and Yasir Durant and Daniel Kilgore on the OL.

[AFlaccoSeagulls]

Just now, Jakuvious said:

I've already responded to you once when you've posted this, and I don't believe you ever replied, unless I missed it, but the difference in weapons is at least mostly offset by the difference in OL play and run game. Our OL was already worse on paper in the offseason, and then LDT and Niang opted out, Rankin got stuck on IR, Osemele went down, Schwartz went down, and Reiter and Remmers have been banged up at various points. On three occasions we've had to signa vet off the street as too many guys were hurt. Our PS UDFA OT had to see snaps at RT against Miami because both Schwartz and Remmers were out. Our interior line was already going to be a weakpoint, and then all the shuffling and losing our best OL and Schwartz has made the OL a huge issue. It's why we can't close out games, because we can't run when teams know we're going to, at all.

Even as far as the weapons go, Watkins has been hurt most of the year (not surprising, but still.) Hill and Adams are about a wash. Hardman and Robinson are useful pieces, but very flawed. The big difference is really just Kelce. Which is a big difference, of course. But the gap in supporting casts is way overstated because it's much easier to see Hill and Kelce, and much harder to notice we're playing Nick Allegretti and Yasir Durant and Daniel Kilgore on the OL.

Come on....lol even if the difference was "just Kelce", you're talking about what is arguably THE BEST pass catcher in the NFL compared to nobodies.