Frank Gore: HOFer?

[LaserFocus]

1 hour ago, Forge said:

LOL. This kind of tells me all I need to know. Was this an attempt to invalidate our point when you have no idea how old anyone is here with something that is not factually true in any regard? I've met plenty of old, stupid people. 

And yes, winning is basically irrelevant when talking about skill positions. Honestly, it's pretty irrelevant for quarterbacks, but I can understand that argument. Hines Ward was fortunate enough to be drafted by the Steelers, have incredible organizational stability and Big Ben as his quarterback for about half his career, along with a number of excellent players. They were super bowl contenders for large chunk of his career. Gore was drafted by a completely inept organization coming off a 2 win season, have a qb carousel of Alex Smith, Tim Rattay, Shaun Hill, JT O'sullivan, Ken Dorsey, Trent Dilfer, Colin Kaepernick, and let's not forget Chris Weinke. Seven offensive coordinators in  his first 7 years, I believe. The 49ers lack of winning had nothing to do with Gore. He didn't have his first winning season until 2011, and then only 3 years of it and that window closed shut because again, the incompetence of the organization. 

And you're right, numbers don't lie. Average yards per game in the playoffs- Ward? 67.33. Gore? 101.63. That's not even particularly close. Average touchdowns per game- Ward? 0.55 td/gm. Gore? 0.63 td/gm. I can play that game too. Ward was a solid player in the playoffs, sometimes very good and great.  But there was nothing special there outside of a game or two. He threw out some duds, just like most guys. 

And nobody is claiming that Ward wasn't a great blocker. He may be the best ever, though that's highly subjective. But he didn't revolutionize anything. And there have been plenty of great blocking wide receivers in history. Heck, Terrell Owens was a great blocking receiver. Larry Fitzgerald has long been a great blocker. It should also be noted that Frank Gore has been considered one of the best blocking running backs throughout his career. I'd love to hear the "facts" that surround Hines Ward revolutionizing the position for blocking, because right now all you've provided is NFL films...which sort of supports the media propaganda angle?  And blocking became more noticed ? Well, that just happened to coicide with a time that featured perhaps the biggest explosion in how media was delivered and received in history, superior footage, better quality footage, more angles, more "analysts" digesting information and breaking it down and talking about it, etc etc etc. 

As for your last paragraph. Changed the game? Not really. Great blocking receiver. He didn't "change" anything. Postseason Excellence? Yep, at some points, no doubt. But also, over the entire length of his career, it was mostly just pretty good, but nothing special. Let's not forget that he only had a HOF quarterback half his career. I can see how that would help his case and hinder Gore's given the amazing quarterback play he's had throughout his career. 

Big Ben wasn't a HOF QB right away, other HOF WR have had a HOF QB for much longer. Gore isn't a WR, so that's a completely different discussion. Ward took blocking to a new level, and blocking from the WR position became more emphasized during the 2000s, was that somehow a coincidence? Ward had four 100 plus receiving games in the playoffs, including a SB MVP, Gore's output doesn't come close to that. Ward was a key component of a playoff team for a long time, we can't just discount that as luck. His 85 career TD receptions rank highly among current HOF WR. Never said it was Gore's fault his teams didn't win more, but players who help win consistently have to be recognized as such. 

Wasn't attempting to put anyone down, but I'd bet most of the fans critical of Ward were teenagers or younger during his 2000-2008 peak years. The influence of fantasy football is obvious anytime we talk about per carry or per reception averages. Ward had a strong first showing on the HOF ballot, it's only a matter of time. 

 

[LaserFocus]

19 minutes ago, disaacs said:

I wonder how we got on the discussion of Hines Ward.  Hines Ward is way down my list of potential HOF candidates.  He doesn't have a legitimate shot, because you have to grade him against his contemporaries, and he's far dwarfed by them.  TO, Randy Moss, Marvin Harrison, Reggie Wayne, Isaac Bruce, Steve Smith, and Torry Holt could all be considered his contemporaries (you could also throw Andre Johnson in there as well) and they all far surpass him in most statistical categories. 

I don't believe you can legitimately make the comparison that Gore's situation is similar to Ward, because of the contemporary player angle.  Gore is far higher on the board of his contemporaries at RB than Ward is among his contemporaries at WR.  

You can see it even more clearly when you see the comparative players to each on their pro-football-reference page.  Ward is most comparable to Keenan McCardell, Harold Jackson and Anquan Boldin, none of whom are HOFers, while Gore is most comparable to Corey Dillon, Floyd Little and Jerome Bettis...2 out of 3 who are HOFers.   

 

HOF induction isn't solely based on individual stats versus contemporaries, and Ward's impressive showing on his first HOF ballot is more proof. Winning, and being the leader of a storied franchise, along with his blocking expertise are important factors. We also need context, several of the receivers you mentioned had the benefit of warmer weather and or domes to help them statistically.

[LaserFocus]

6 hours ago, PapaShogun said:

For a skill position player it should be. And it's been proven time and time again by the people in the HOF that it is. OJ never won anything, but he was a lock for the HOF. Same with Tomlinson. I can't remember a runningback or wide receiver having a stellar career and not getting in because they didn't win a ring and/or having that being something that was held against them to a large degree as to why they can't get in. I mean, Corey Dillion, Jamal Lewis, and Ricky Watters have rings. That hasn't helped them. Really, you can apply this to the defensive side of the ball too. Rings only seem to matter to media pundits with quarterbacks and coaches. That is it. 

Ward played on a better team and had more opportunities in the postseason. But Ward wasn't the catalyst for why they got there. I mean, no one walks about OJ Simpson and his lack of playoff success. Or Earl Caapbell. Or Lenny Moore. Or Gale Sayers and Floyd Little who never even played in the postseason. Because no one cares. Terrell Davis is probably the only that is talked about because every playoff game he played in he was lights out. 

Errrm yeah no Ward didn't take blocking to a new level. He was good at it, ok. But again, he wasn't revolutionary. Unless you'd like to explain how he took it to a "new level". 

Btw, Warren Moon doesn't get in if he has a career like James Harris. He was a stellar passer and arguably the best QB in the NFL at various points in his career. That is why he was in. If he was white he'd also be a first ballot inductee. Even if you are "different" or "change the game" in some fashion, you still have to have a lights out career. Or else my boy Craig would be in. 

Look, I love NFL Films, but they aren't infallible. A lot of their pieces are romanticized and they're contextualized for television. That doesn't necessarily mean they're lying about the content they put out, but a lot of the times it is romanticized, and not all sides of the coin are looked at. Just look at their NFL Yearbook series that comes out every season for every NFL team. The ones for the losing squads are always amusingly optimistic about the team moving forward. NFL Films shouldn't be used to prove a point though. Like ever. Blocking has always been an important aspect of the WR position long before Ward was around. Maybe the casual fan took more notice because of the media promoting Ward's skills a blocker, but really...that doesn't mean Ward was doing something that no one ever did before him. Or even better than everyone that came before him.

I strongly suggest you look at the HOF members closely, you'll find an overwhelming number of players who excelled on winning teams. Dillion, Lewis, and Waters have one ring apiece, and didn't have the postseason play of a Hines Ward. He was a key component of the offense, I'm floored anyone feels differently. And if you followed football closely from 2000 onward, more emphasis on WR blocking was apparent. Other HOF players were elected partly because of doing something distinctive, and blocking will help Ward's case.

You're confusing the NFL Yearbook promotional shows with the weekly features show they produce. In their features and documentary work, NFL Films is very accurate. And Ward is arguably the best blocking WR ever.  

[Kiwibrown]

If he ends up top 5 in rushing, which he has a sot at, he has to make the hall imo. 

[swede700]

4 minutes ago, LaserFocus said:

 

HOF induction isn't solely based on individual stats versus contemporaries, and Ward's impressive showing on his first HOF ballot is more proof. 

Since Ward didn't even make the finalist list, I'm not sure how impressive that is.  Karl Mecklenburg has perenially been a HOF semi-finalist, but likely will never make the HOF.  Same goes for Roger Craig.  They were both outstanding and very good players, but that doesn't necessarily make them HOFers. I can easily see Hines Ward being on the semi-finalist list many years, but get passed over every time, because of many of those players I listed above who have or soon will be on the list as well. 

[Kiwibrown]

IMO the hall should appreciate all trajectories of someones career. 
If someone is the top player in their position and has a good run in the playoffs, even if they do not do it for long they are hall of fame worthy. 
I think Terrell Davis deserves to be there without the bulk stats. No one has come close  his level of success over 19 games. 

Gore has played on only a few good teams over his years. If he was drafted by a team that a had a great line then I think he would be top2-3 for yards. He didn't have the same opportunities that davis or smith had as running back. He wouldn't of been as good, but he also would of been right there in terms of production. I have no problem with him making the hall. 

[LaserFocus]

7 hours ago, disaacs said:

Since Ward didn't even make the finalist list, I'm not sure how impressive that is.  Karl Mecklenburg has perenially been a HOF semi-finalist, but likely will never make the HOF.  Same goes for Roger Craig.  They were both outstanding and very good players, but that doesn't necessarily make them HOFers. I can easily see Hines Ward being on the semi-finalist list many years, but get passed over every time, because of many of those players I listed above who have or soon will be on the list as well. 

Ward has a flat out stronger case than Karl Mecklenburg, the memory of that Bronco defense getting mauled in Super Bowls isn't helpful for him. Roger Craig was terrific, but he faded, and has the costly fumble in the 1990 NFC TG. The totality of Ward's career will end up carrying the day, and I predict he could get in before some of these diva wide receivers. He was just a blue collar WR in an era when some fans look at the position more in a fantasy football context. We'll have to revisit this issue later, but the qualifications are there, especially when compared with other candidates, and HOF receivers. 

[Forge]

2 hours ago, LaserFocus said:

Ward has a flat out stronger case than Karl Mecklenburg, the memory of that Bronco defense getting mauled in Super Bowls isn't helpful for him. Roger Craig was terrific, but he faded, and has the costly fumble in the 1990 NFC TG. The totality of Ward's career will end up carrying the day, and I predict he could get in before some of these diva wide receivers. He was just a blue collar WR in an era when some fans look at the position more in a fantasy football context. We'll have to revisit this issue later, but the qualifications are there, especially when compared with other candidates, and HOF receivers. 

This is great and all, but what he's saying is that Ward's finish in the hall voting really wasn't all that impressive, given that guys that you yourself just said weren't HOFs have gotten just as far without actually getting into Canton. Ward's finish really isn't all that impressive. 

To the bolded - eh. I mean, he has some career comps to hall of famers, but he also comps out well to non-hall of famers like Irving Fryar and Derrick Mason (well he's slightly above Mason) and Jimmy Smith and Isaac Bruce, who's still not in. So it really could go either way, and given the struggles that receivers have had getting into the hall, I really don't like his chances any time soon. He can't get in before Owens, can't get in before Randy and shouldn't get in before Megatron. Then you have other guys like Isaac Bruce and Torrey Holt  still waiting who have just as good of a case, if not better. Then there's Reggie Wayne and the recently retired Andre Johnson and Steve Smith, and the soon to be retired Brandon Marshall, who has very similar career numbers to Ward and a first team all pro to his credit. Larry Fitzgerald will retire soon as well. There's nothing that makes Ward stand out above any of those guys I just named and several of them have to be far higher in the pecking order than Ward at this point. Would I be upset if he were to get in? No...but its not going to be easy. He may just be the Fred Taylor of wide receivers. 

[footbull3196]

It's not that I think hes a Hall of Fame caliber player, it's that his career numbers are becoming harder to ignore.  The dude just passed 13000 yards for his career which is on the cusp of the top 5 in NFL history, and whether you like to admit it or not, he did play a significant part on a 49ers team that went to 3 straight NFC Championship Games and a Super Bowl largely based around their running game and defensive play

With 9 seasons of 1000 yards or more and 5 Pro Bowls, I think he will get in but definitely not on the first ballot

[Forge]

9 hours ago, LaserFocus said:

Big Ben wasn't a HOF QB right away, other HOF WR have had a HOF QB for much longer. Gore isn't a WR, so that's a completely different discussion. Ward took blocking to a new level, and blocking from the WR position became more emphasized during the 2000s, was that somehow a coincidence?

Ward had four 100 plus receiving games in the playoffs, including a SB MVP, Gore's output doesn't come close to that. Ward was a key component of a playoff team for a long time, we can't just discount that as luck. His 85 career TD receptions rank highly among current HOF WR. Never said it was Gore's fault his teams didn't win more, but players who help win consistently have to be recognized as such. 

Wasn't attempting to put anyone down, but I'd bet most of the fans critical of Ward were teenagers or younger during his 2000-2008 peak years. The influence of fantasy football is obvious anytime we talk about per carry or per reception averages. Ward had a strong first showing on the HOF ballot, it's only a matter of time. 

 

That seems odd given that running has been de-emphasized during the 2000's to a large degree, meaning that receivers actually have to block less (3 teams in 2003 threw 60% or more of the time...this year, 13 teams throw 60% or more). Do you have support for that claim? 

Gore has 4 100 yard games in 8 total. So half the time, he was giving you 100 yfs. 2 of those were 100 yards rushing alone, which is still more efficient than what Ward did (25% to 22% of games w/100 yards or more). No, he doesn't have the bulk output that Ward does, though his efficiency is better than Ward's. And while his bulk output in the playoffs doesn't come close, Ward doesn't really match up with Gore's regular season output. And Ward can be recognized as a good player who helped his team win. I have no issue with that. That doesn't mean hall of fame though. Rod Smith has comparable stats to Ward, helped his team win...he's probably not going to the hall of fame. But he's still recognized as a good player who helped the Broncos win. 

[Forge]

1 hour ago, Forge said:

This is great and all, but what he's saying is that Ward's finish in the hall voting really wasn't all that impressive, given that guys that you yourself just said weren't HOFs have gotten just as far without actually getting into Canton. Ward's finish really isn't all that impressive. 

To the bolded - eh. I mean, he has some career comps to hall of famers, but he also comps out well to non-hall of famers like Irving Fryar and Derrick Mason (well he's slightly above Mason) and Jimmy Smith and Isaac Bruce, who's still not in. So it really could go either way, and given the struggles that receivers have had getting into the hall, I really don't like his chances any time soon. He can't get in before Owens, can't get in before Randy and shouldn't get in before Megatron. Then you have other guys like Isaac Bruce and Torrey Holt  still waiting who have just as good of a case, if not better. Then there's Reggie Wayne and the recently retired Andre Johnson and Steve Smith, and the soon to be retired Brandon Marshall, who has very similar career numbers to Ward and a first team all pro to his credit. Larry Fitzgerald will retire soon as well. There's nothing that makes Ward stand out above any of those guys I just named and several of them have to be far higher in the pecking order than Ward at this point. Would I be upset if he were to get in? No...but its not going to be easy. He may just be the Fred Taylor of wide receivers. 

Oh, and I forgot to add Anquan Boldin to this list, who has very, very similar numbers to Ward and was a beast blocking as well. 

[TecmoSuperJoe]

13 hours ago, LaserFocus said:

I strongly suggest you look at the HOF members closely, you'll find an overwhelming number of players who excelled on winning teams. Dillion, Lewis, and Waters have one ring apiece, and didn't have the postseason play of a Hines Ward. He was a key component of the offense, I'm floored anyone feels differently. And if you followed football closely from 2000 onward, more emphasis on WR blocking was apparent. Other HOF players were elected partly because of doing something distinctive, and blocking will help Ward's case.

You're confusing the NFL Yearbook promotional shows with the weekly features show they produce. In their features and documentary work, NFL Films is very accurate. And Ward is arguably the best blocking WR ever.  

NFL Films romanticizes most of their content based on the story they want to tell and how they want it to be told. It isn't just NFL Yearbook. It's also NFL Films Presents, The Timeline, NFL Game of the Week, A Football Life, Lost Treasures, NFL's Greatest Games, etc. Maybe the only one that doesn't fit is Football Follies. Providing one example of their stylized content isn't being confused. Saying Ward is arguably the greatest blocking receiver ever because NFL Films said so is not a very good argument though. I mean, come on now. 

Ricky Watters scored 5 touchdowns in a game with over 100 rushing yards in a rout against the New York Giants in 1993. Hines Ward has never come close to producing a game like that in the playoffs. He also scored three touchdowns in the Super Bowl. 

Jamal Lewis has had a couple of 100 yard games in his playoff career including the Super Bowl where he scored a TD.

Corey Dillon I can give you. By the time he got to the playoffs he was already 30 years old. And in runningback years that is basically when you start breaking down. Still during his 2004 campaign he played very well in the playoffs. 

But my point about those players was regarding having rings along with a quality resume to get into the HOF, yet it still not helping their cause. They all had good games in the playoffs, just about as good if not better than what Ward did with more opportunities in the playoffs. Ward played in 18 playoff games and had 1,181 yards to go along with 10 touchdowns. With 5 of those 18 games going over 100 yards, never scoring twice in a game. That's about on par for what he would do in a season for you at the height of his powers. Good player. Not great. 

And this entire blocking claim is starting to get ridiculous. Okay it's considered by most people invested in the sport he was a good, maybe great blocker at his position. But there is no "blocking became more important in the 2000s" rhetoric that you seem to be believe in. Who told you this? NFL Films? Blocking for receivers has always been an important trait of a quality wide receiver. Long before Ward was on the scene in 1998. Ward being good at his job didn't convince zillions of players and coaches that came before him "you know, maybe there is something special to this WR blocking thing after all!!!".  

Ward was never the best receiver in the NFL at any point in his career. He never lead the NFL in any major category for his position. If you were to let him in, then you open the door to guys like Rod Smith, Toomer, Mason, Driver, Boldin, Jimmy Smith, Moulds etc. And Ward wasn't better than all of those guys.

[Shady Slim]

yeah

[TecmoSuperJoe]

4 hours ago, Forge said:

Oh, and I forgot to add Anquan Boldin to this list, who has very, very similar numbers to Ward and was a beast blocking as well. 

Ocho Cinco lol. 

[LaserFocus]

7 hours ago, Forge said:

That seems odd given that running has been de-emphasized during the 2000's to a large degree, meaning that receivers actually have to block less (3 teams in 2003 threw 60% or more of the time...this year, 13 teams throw 60% or more). Do you have support for that claim? 

Gore has 4 100 yard games in 8 total. So half the time, he was giving you 100 yfs. 2 of those were 100 yards rushing alone, which is still more efficient than what Ward did (25% to 22% of games w/100 yards or more). No, he doesn't have the bulk output that Ward does, though his efficiency is better than Ward's. And while his bulk output in the playoffs doesn't come close, Ward doesn't really match up with Gore's regular season output. And Ward can be recognized as a good player who helped his team win. I have no issue with that. That doesn't mean hall of fame though. Rod Smith has comparable stats to Ward, helped his team win...he's probably not going to the hall of fame. But he's still recognized as a good player who helped the Broncos win. 

Blocking by a WR is also important in pass pro and for other receivers when they catch the ball. During the 2000s, blocking at the WR position was emphasized and noticed more, and Hines Ward was the top dog in this area. Putting aside the countless TV broadcasts where announcers like John Madden(not exactly a Steelers fan) brought this up, but scouting reports for individual players also included this. I've been involved in all levels of football, and it's factual to say the importance of blocking for receivers reached new awareness in the 2000s, and Ward played a key role in this occurrence. Anytime you hear "Larry Fitzgerald is now excelling in the Hines Ward role", that's part of a legacy.

Rod Smith was terrific, and I would have no problem with him eventually gaining HOF entrance. Boldin is a similar player to Ward, but never won a SB MVP, and wasn't the all time franchise leader of a storied franchise. Hines Ward had the slightly better career.