Saints vs Chiefs

[Saint_James]

26 minutes ago, Mid Iowa said:

I'm most upset that Kamara, yet again, was averaging nearly 5 yards per carry, and we saw Payton doing what he does, abandon the run to force the pass to work, no matter what.

I'm over the "offensive genius" BS we've been hearing for so many years. He's coaching at mid level, with elite (or near elite) players. I know great coaches are hard to come by, but with the talent we've had over the last 15 years, to only have 1 ring is pretty pathetic, really. 

I'm having a lot of trouble with Payton's ego these days, guys. 

He's averaging 5 yards a carry because of play action.  The passes free up the runs.  Do you seriously think we can feed him the ball 30 times a game and that average won't go WAY down????

Payton is an offensive genius, come on.  Nobody in their right mind would dispute that.   How can you not appreciate the job he's done this season??  The Saints were averaging 30 PPG until Brees went out with our top playmakers injured, getting COVID, etc etc.   You think any coach could just do that? 

[Jlowe22]

2 minutes ago, Saint_James said:

 

To say you're being overly-critical of Taysom would be an understatement here.   But I get it, lots of people want to hate on this guy because we just cannot fathom life after Brees or whatever.  

Taysom gives the Saints offense an element we haven't had in 5 or 6 seasons.  As far as his passing chops, can you show me a game where he only completed 44% of his passes and was 1/11 on third downs this season?  I haven't seen it.  I love how you and others say he's such a bad passer, but you can't find any statistics to reflect that.

Screen passes?  You know what I'm so sick of these screens that barely ever work. Every team KNOWS the Saints are a screen pass team at this point, they just don't work anymore.   Drew Brees has targeted Kamara on 26% of his dropbacks this season.  That is INSANE for an NFL offense these days.  Taysom can RIP the 15+ yard seam passes and out routs and those have been missing from our offense for years now under Drew Brees.  He can make tight window throws to Thomas where Brees can't anymore, the ball comes out of his hand so slow now.  Do you want a guy that throws screens all game, or one that gets the ball to wide receivers? 

We've lost the past three playoff games with Brees and in all three he had slow starts JUST like this game.  Maybe I'm just freaking out a little bit but I saw the same guy last night....

Sure, a Drew Brees statistically gives us our best chance to win.   A 41 year old Drew Brees with bad ribs?  Not so much....

We just scored a TD on a screen pass that Taysom throws into the dirt.  

Targeting Kamara does work, Kamara is a great player.  Taysom doesn’t target him at all, that much more of a bad thing than a good thing.

I might be a little too hard on Taysom, but many of these points are valid criticisms.  The turnovers especially, averaging two a game is terrible.

Taysom played two decent/good games against garbage defenses with a healthy Mike Thomas and managed points in the low twenties, and just lost a game to the 3-8 Eagles.  My confidence in him beating the Chiefs without any Mike Thomas is low to say the least.

[Saint_James]

5 minutes ago, Jlowe22 said:

We just scored a TD on a screen pass that Taysom throws into the dirt.  

Targeting Kamara does work, Kamara is a great player.  Taysom doesn’t target him at all, that much more of a bad thing than a good thing.

I might be a little too hard on Taysom, but many of these points are valid criticisms.  The turnovers especially, averaging two a game is terrible.

Taysom played two decent/good games against garbage defenses with a healthy Mike Thomas and managed points in the low twenties, and just lost a game to the 3-8 Eagles.  My confidence in him beating the Chiefs without any Mike Thomas is low to say the least.

 

Okay well since we're breaking out the crystal balls here, Brees floated 10 bad passes to covered  receivers this game that Taysom completes because the ball zips in there faster

I don't think you're evaluation of Taysom's play is objective in the least.   That's okay, you have the right to an opinion.   No way an objective person puts that Eagles loss just on the QB, and there's ZERO chance Drew Brees does better facing such a fearsome pass-rush all night even if his ribs were 100%. 

[whodatworm23]

40 minutes ago, Saint_James said:

 

Okay well since we're breaking out the crystal balls here, Brees floated 10 bad passes to covered  receivers this game that Taysom completes because the ball zips in there faster

I don't think you're evaluation of Taysom's play is objective in the least.   That's okay, you have the right to an opinion.   No way an objective person puts that Eagles loss just on the QB, and there's ZERO chance Drew Brees does better facing such a fearsome pass-rush all night even if his ribs were 100%. 

Taysoms short to intermediate passing game is utter garbage!!! Absolutely ZERO touch onn those passes. 60 million dollar dual threat running back in MVP conversation gets regulated to a one trick pony once Hill is inserted as the starting QB and a major part of our offense is negated.

 

Hills mid-game is good... Good zip on his throws and timing is impressive at times.

 

Hills deep throws are feast or famine. One might me super impressive while the next might be so embrassing you want to turn off your TV and refuse to admit your a Saints fan.

 

Hills athletic ability... TREMENDOUS! However, Hill does not seem to throw well on the run which is really concerning.

 

Hills pocket awareness... Below average to utter trash. Holds the ball to long, has no internal clock, hesitates to run the ball while inside the pocket when play breaks down.

 

Hills ball security... Maybe the worst ive seen.

 

Hills ability in reads and progressions... Needs 4+ seconds in the pocket to get to his 3rd read, not good enough. 3 or less has to be the goal. One major issue he has is he locks into his 1st read for to long which is common in young QBs. However it also appears Hill is thinking to much as well during his progressions which is also causing delays. There are times Hill needs 5 seconds which is bad. When he does get all the time he needs hes average to above average but what NFL QB wouldnt be with all that time?

 

Look, I like the kid.

 

I like the athletic ability, the leadership, the character, all of it but when I evaluate his play the flaws far outweight the positives which are masked IMO by a very goof defense and talented supporting cast on offense and a smart HC/playcaller looking not to expose him.

 

Having said all that... Id rather evalute the kid in a offensive scheme more suited to his skill set.

[Jlowe22]

24 minutes ago, Saint_James said:

 

Okay well since we're breaking out the crystal balls here, Brees floated 10 bad passes to covered  receivers this game that Taysom completes because the ball zips in there faster

I don't think you're evaluation of Taysom's play is objective in the least.   That's okay, you have the right to an opinion.   No way an objective person puts that Eagles loss just on the QB, and there's ZERO chance Drew Brees does better facing such a fearsome pass-rush all night even if his ribs were 100%. 

I never put the Eagles loss squarely on Taysom.  No win or loss is ever on one person.

Theres a ton of valid criticisms on Taysom’s play that you either ignore or don’t care about, and that’s fine, you have a right to your opinion.
 

 

 

 

[Mid Iowa]

1 hour ago, Saint_James said:

He's averaging 5 yards a carry because of play action.  The passes free up the runs.  Do you seriously think we can feed him the ball 30 times a game and that average won't go WAY down????

We'll never know, will we? If he gets 15 touches, I'd be surprised. You put him and Murray together on a 30 touch per game diet (like we saw in Detroit, 19 for Kamara, 14 for Murray, and then 3 for Hill, throw in some Deonte for a few more), and I'll guarantee you a different outcome (you know, like KC did to us last night). But no, Payton will almost never allow it, even though it worked to perfection in week 4.

And, yes, I appreciate what he's accomplished this season, and many seasons before, only to get smoked by crap teams (Eagles last week, Vikings in the playoffs last year) or go 7-9 3 seasons in a row in the peak of Brees's career. So maybe he is a genius, but his execution is par. Hell, even Eli Manning has more trophies than the Saints, so somethings amiss. 

I like Payton, right up until I don't, and the last 2 weeks have been piss poor coaching, to say the least.
I actually think if we'd have had a game plan with 25 rushing attempts, this score would have been more like 38 - 24 Saints.

Edited December 21, 2020 by Mid Iowa

[Mid Iowa]

Separate topic, I hope Jordan doesn't get suspended a game for a closed fist blow to the head. We'll really need him to hold down Dalvin Cook next week.

[tyler735]

16 hours ago, Jlowe22 said:

Thoughts

Brees was of course rusty, but all in all not really that bad.  His arm looked a lot better than expected.  The statistics were bad, but physically and mentally, he looks good.

I think if you take out the dreadful start to the game. First quarter (part of second quarter) he started to find his rhythm a bit and grew into the game. The play calling did him no favors either to start the game. Bunch of down field passes instead of easing into it getting Kamara involved with some quick easy passes. Obviously getting Michael Thomas back will do wonders for him as well.

16 hours ago, Jlowe22 said:

Receiver depth is trash.

I like our WR core when everyone is healthy, but no Michael Thomas obviously hurts. 

Thomas, Sanders, Smith, Harris, and Callaway is pretty solid. Problem being 3 of them have been hurt.

16 hours ago, Jlowe22 said:

Jared Cook trash.

His inconsistencies are so frustrating. Hope Trautman gets more snaps to end the season. He's shown flashes of being a solid all around TE.

16 hours ago, Jlowe22 said:

Ruiz trash

Definitely not what we are used to with our recent OL picks, he's not nearly as polished as Ramczyk and McCoy 

16 hours ago, Jlowe22 said:

Defense played as well as can be expected against the Chiefs.  Holding them below 40 is an accomplishment.

This is the part I found the most encouraging. Don't think the score does justice to how well they played Mahomes and the Chiefs offense. They were getting consistent pressure on him, and had several sacks to go along with some turnover worthy plays. Believe be fumbled a couple times and easily could have had an interception early on had Jenkins not been flagged on something that didn't effect the play. Our offense put our defense in some tough spots early on, but they for the most part did a quality job defending Mahomes.

16 hours ago, Jlowe22 said:

Anzalone screwed us though.

Agreed that play completely changed the game. If he recovers we may win this game. 

16 hours ago, Jlowe22 said:

Loss, no surprise there.  Only need one more win to wrap up division, need to tighten up.

Yeah definitely no surprise. However if we play them again I think we have shown we can compete with probably the best team in the NFL. Not saying we win, but we certainly could. Getting healthy WR's back and getting Brees back in rhythm with a few games under his belt again should help quite a bit.

[tyler735]

2 hours ago, Mid Iowa said:

I'm most upset that Kamara, yet again, was averaging nearly 5 yards per carry, and we saw Payton doing what he does, abandon the run to force the pass to work, no matter what.

I'm over the "offensive genius" BS we've been hearing for so many years. He's coaching at mid level, with elite (or near elite) players. I know great coaches are hard to come by, but with the talent we've had over the last 15 years, to only have 1 ring is pretty pathetic, really. 

I'm having a lot of trouble with Payton's ego these days, guys. 

This to me is maybe the most infuriating aspect of Payton's coaching. How do you not keep Kamara involved especially in a huge game like this. Kamara consistently makes plays. I sure as hell trust Kamara to get us yards over guys like Humphrey, Johnson and Smith at WR. Just puzzling to me. Using Kamara also helps give our defense a rest as we likely can control the clock more and not let Mahomes have as many chances to hurt us. 

[Jlowe22]

45 minutes ago, Mid Iowa said:

Separate topic, I hope Jordan doesn't get suspended a game for a closed fist blow to the head. We'll really need him to hold down Dalvin Cook next week.

That was such a dumb move.  I hope he gets it out of his system before the playoffs.

[Saint_James]

4 hours ago, Jlowe22 said:

I never put the Eagles loss squarely on Taysom.  No win or loss is ever on one person.

Theres a ton of valid criticisms on Taysom’s play that you either ignore or don’t care about, and that’s fine, you have a right to your opinion.
 

 

 

 

I'm not saying he's above criticism but Jesus Christ man, he's started FOUR games at QB.   What is with you and others totally removing that context from this debate??

He's an incredible athlete and has proven he can throw the ball efficiently and with serious power.  You really don't think "touch" and these other nitpicks will be improved with practice and coaching?

 

[Jlowe22]

11 minutes ago, Saint_James said:

I'm not saying he's above criticism but Jesus Christ man, he's started FOUR games at QB.   What is with you and others totally removing that context from this debate??

He's an incredible athlete and has proven he can throw the ball efficiently and with serious power.  You really don't think "touch" and these other nitpicks will be improved with practice and coaching?

 

I didn’t say he was a bad backup or did a bad job, he’s better than most backups in the league, and he did a good job for the most part when looked at from that context. 

The jury is still out on whether or not he’s a long term starter, and that’s what is being discussed. In that regard, he’s better than some starters, I’d take him over a handful of guys.

But that’s not really the standard we want at QB.  For a long term starter, we need more than that, and thus far, Taysom has way too many flaws to be that guy.  Like I’ve said before, we need an off-season of starter reps, and perhaps Payton given a full offseason to better tailor the offense to his skill set to truly make a fair judgment.  It looks like he’s gonna get that chance, so maybe we’ll find out next year.

 I don’t think anyone has been impressed with Payton’s game planning for Taysom, and that I’ll give him.  But wen you add up all his flaws, we’re gonna need to see a lot of improvement to make him that guy.  And honestly, I like Taysom, I hope he becomes that guy.

[whodatworm23]

4 hours ago, Saint_James said:

I'm not saying he's above criticism but Jesus Christ man, he's started FOUR games at QB.   What is with you and others totally removing that context from this debate??

He's an incredible athlete and has proven he can throw the ball efficiently and with serious power.  You really don't think "touch" and these other nitpicks will be improved with practice and coaching?

 

Hes going to be 31 years old at the start of next year. Hes been with the Saints for 3 years behind Brees. Exactly how much more development do you think is required? How much longer are you willing to give him? At what point does a player whose more of ann athlete begin to lose to father time?

 

Also... Touch is a very important attribute when evaluating a QB. Jamarcus Russell had a powerful arm. Is touch everything? No but Id rather have a QB with average arm strength and great touch than a player with great arm strength and average touch.

[JohnCena]

10 hours ago, whodatworm23 said:

Its not about having a QB always running I agree, however... Its also not about trying to make Hill a Brees clone. 

 

He is not!

 

What im gettin too and what its truly about is exactly what the leauge has been trending towards and why Payton is so high on Hills potnetial. This leauge is about QBs that can EXTEND plays... Period. Look at the top 10 in QB index thus far...

1. Rodgers

2. Mahomes

3. Allen

4. Tannehill

5. Watson

6. Wilson

7. Jackson

8. Muarry

9. Brady

10. Herbert

 

Only 1 of the above (Brady) isnt a QB that extends plays and hes the GOAT. This is where the NFL is today. Its not about having a running QB, its about having a QB who can move and extend plays beyond the structure of the offense yet all of these players other than Brady are operating a offense that is built around their talents... When Hill is in Payton has him runnning a offense built around Brees talents.

 

I believe in Hill... If, only IF Payton is willing to. Adapt his offense to Taysoms skill set.

All those players mentioned above are also elite throwers of the football as well, Taysom Hill is anything but that. If I were the Saints I'd start Jameis Winston next year. 

[whodatworm23]

1 hour ago, JohnCena said:

All those players mentioned above are also elite throwers of the football as well, Taysom Hill is anything but that. If I were the Saints I'd start Jameis Winston next year. 

I wouldn't say Tannnehill or Jackson were elite throwers.