Defense holding calls

[Blackstar12]

The NFL needs to change this rule. A team shouldn't be rewarded with a first down if the call one at 3rd and 10. It's already hard to play defense as it is in today's NFL.

 

 

[Xmad]

If you sneeze on a WR it's a holding call. If a WR illegally pushes off no one sees it.

Tis the way of the modern NFL. 

[jrry32]

That's silly. Offensive holding is a 10 yard penalty. Defensive holding is a 5 yard penalty. Why shouldn't it be an automatic first down? If it wasn't an automatic first down, what deters teams from holding on every 3rd and long play? There's minimal risk to doing it.

[Kip Smithers]

51 minutes ago, jrry32 said:

That's silly. Offensive holding is a 10 yard penalty. Defensive holding is a 5 yard penalty. Why shouldn't it be an automatic first down? If it wasn't an automatic first down, what deters teams from holding on every 3rd and long play? There's minimal risk to doing it.

Yeah that's the problem that arises if you change it. I rather they be more lenient and less inclined to throw the flag than to change the penalty

[bucsfan333]

Move your feet. Problem solved.

[Blackstar12]

 

 

10 hours ago, OleXmad said:

If you sneeze on a WR it's a holding call. If a WR illegally pushes off no one sees it.

Tis the way of the modern NFL. 

Hit the nail on the head.

[Blackstar12]

9 hours ago, jrry32 said:

That's silly. Offensive holding is a 10 yard penalty. Defensive holding is a 5 yard penalty. Why shouldn't it be an automatic first down? If it wasn't an automatic first down, what deters teams from holding on every 3rd and long play? There's minimal risk to doing it.

If they hold on those 3rd and long plays the play gets easier to convert. I don't think team would purposely hold on say 3rd and 10.

[TheVillain112]

I'm not a fan of automatic first down calls.  Just give them yards...

[jrry32]

47 minutes ago, Blackstar12 said:

If they hold on those 3rd and long plays the play gets easier to convert. I don't think team would purposely hold on say 3rd and 10.

Why wouldn't you? You just dare the refs to call it. They're not going to flag every play.

[Jakuvious]

10 hours ago, jrry32 said:

That's silly. Offensive holding is a 10 yard penalty. Defensive holding is a 5 yard penalty. Why shouldn't it be an automatic first down? If it wasn't an automatic first down, what deters teams from holding on every 3rd and long play? There's minimal risk to doing it.

A lot of things? If they get called for the penalty and it is accepted, it's still 3rd down and it's an easier down. If they get called for the penalty, the offense might still succeed and get a first down anyways. Some QBs are smart enough to take advantage when they see a flag thrown, or throw to a guy who is clearly being interfered with. This isn't like the college 15 yard DPI penalty thing, where you can commit the penalty and go from giving up 60 yards and a touchdown to 15 and a first down. There is no benefit to deliberately hold. If you're close enough to the receiver to hold and the ball hasn't been thrown, you're also probably close enough to just cover him normally.

Make it a 10 yard penalty if you think that's more fair. But offensive holding is just 10 yards and replay the down. That is much less detrimental to the offense than 5 yards and a new set of downs is to the defense.

[jrry32]

Just now, Jakuvious said:

A lot of things? If they get called for the penalty and it is accepted, it's still 3rd down and it's an easier down. If they get called for the penalty, the offense might still succeed and get a first down anyways. Some QBs are smart enough to take advantage when they see a flag thrown, or throw to a guy who is clearly being interfered with. This isn't like the college 15 yard DPI penalty thing, where you can commit the penalty and go from giving up 60 yards and a touchdown to 15 and a first down. There is no benefit to deliberately hold. If you're close enough to the receiver to hold and the ball hasn't been thrown, you're also probably close enough to just cover him normally.

Make it a 10 yard penalty if you think that's more fair. But offensive holding is just 10 yards and replay the down. That is much less detrimental to the offense than 5 yards and a new set of downs is to the defense.

QBs can't take advantage of defensive holding. The flag is rarely thrown early in the play.

There absolutely is a benefit to deliberately holding. The refs aren't going to call it all the time. One of the big deterrents as it stands now is the automatic first down. If all you get with defensive holding is a 5 yard penalty, it's going to become far more prevalent. Teams already use it as a strategy. 

And guys typically hold off the LOS to disrupt route timing or when the WR tries to make his break to prevent separation. The idea that you won't hold because you'll cover him normally isn't accurate. If it were, the automatic first down wouldn't matter because players wouldn't hold.

Offensive holding is 10 yards and replay the down because you have no automatic first down equivalent on offense. I like the penalty as is. It deters teams from using it as a strategy. And if they do, they get punished when they get their hands caught in the cookie jar.

[Jakuvious]

10 minutes ago, jrry32 said:

QBs can't take advantage of defensive holding. The flag is rarely thrown early in the play.

There absolutely is a benefit to deliberately holding. The refs aren't going to call it all the time. One of the big deterrents as it stands now is the automatic first down. If all you get with defensive holding is a 5 yard penalty, it's going to become far more prevalent. Teams already use it as a strategy. 

And guys typically hold off the LOS to disrupt route timing or when the WR tries to make his break to prevent separation. The idea that you won't hold because you'll cover him normally isn't accurate. If it were, the automatic first down wouldn't matter because players wouldn't hold.

Offensive holding is 10 yards and replay the down because you have no automatic first down equivalent on offense. I like the penalty as is. It deters teams from using it as a strategy. And if they do, they get punished when they get their hands caught in the cookie jar.

Loss of down would be the obvious equivalent. If the defensive one extends the drive for the offense, the offensive one should logically shorten the drive. I wouldn't advocate that, mind you, but there is a potential equivalent.

Like I said, QBs often take advantage by throwing towards that receiver. Increases the chance of the hold/illegal contact/DPI getting called. I've seen Smith do it multiple times. See a guy get held at the top of his route, throw that way early. He did it just last week on an out to Ross Travis.

And again, if you want to just deter holding more than 5 yards, make it 10. Same as offense. But a DB holding 2 yards of the LOS makes no sense to be an automatic first down foul.

I'm fine with automatic first downs on personal fouls. Those you want to dissuade a bit more, and generally either have to do with safety or sportsmanship. But the fact that penalties like hands to the face, holding, and illegal contact are automatic first downs make no sense. Especially when the corresponding offensive penalties hurt so much less.

If teams hold if you take away the automatic first down, fine, that's strategy. I don't think they would, because it makes more sense to just try to cover the guy, but if you do, fine. But it's no different that offensive linemen deliberately holding to prevent a sack in the hopes the refs don't call it. And that's the problem. The defense is punished far more severely for a similar infraction than the offense is.

[jrry32]

I hate the defensive holding strategy. I'm fine with it being taken away. And 10 yards with no first down isn't going to deter any more than 5 yards with a first down.

[Hunter2_1]

Well, on the other hand, you can absolutely rag doll Gronk and get away with it. 

[ChazStandard]

On 14/10/2017 at 9:54 AM, jrry32 said:

That's silly. Offensive holding is a 10 yard penalty. Defensive holding is a 5 yard penalty. Why shouldn't it be an automatic first down? If it wasn't an automatic first down, what deters teams from holding on every 3rd and long play? There's minimal risk to doing it.

What stops a team from holding is 5 yard penalty and replay of the down? That's a ridiculous argument. Why not make all penalties an automatic first down then? If you hold and 3rd and 6, it becomes 3rd and 1, that's what stops you doing it.