soulman Posted June 14, 2021 Share Posted June 14, 2021 3 hours ago, WindyCity said: All of those teams made major QB moves that had dead cap associated. A majority of the dead money comes from a Pace restructure of his deal before 2021. The GB contract only had 4.5 dead money in 2021. He didn't have much choice and would probably have done it again if he was able to and Fuller would've agreed. The bottom line is I'm not gonna dump of Pace and Laine over certain amounts of dead cap based on an assumption that the 2021 cap would be in the range of $210 mil and no one else should either. Like I posted before it's like your job is going along fine and you even earn a nice 2020 bonus so to celebrate you buy a new car only to find you've been laid off or let go a month or two later. No one was COVID clairvoyant. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WindyCity Posted June 15, 2021 Author Share Posted June 15, 2021 9 hours ago, soulman said: He didn't have much choice and would probably have done it again if he was able to and Fuller would've agreed. The bottom line is I'm not gonna dump of Pace and Laine over certain amounts of dead cap based on an assumption that the 2021 cap would be in the range of $210 mil and no one else should either. Like I posted before it's like your job is going along fine and you even earn a nice 2020 bonus so to celebrate you buy a new car only to find you've been laid off or let go a month or two later. No one was COVID clairvoyant. My criticism doesn’t come from buying a car, it comes from buying way too expensive a car. They had a Chevy Malibu budget and they spent Bentley money, then they lost their jobs and it looks even more ridiculous. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soulman Posted June 15, 2021 Share Posted June 15, 2021 3 hours ago, WindyCity said: My criticism doesn’t come from buying a car, it comes from buying way too expensive a car. They had a Chevy Malibu budget and they spent Bentley money, then they lost their jobs and it looks even more ridiculous. Nah..... They paid market price when the player was signed. If that player doesn't produce (injury excepted) it's more on that player and/or the coaches than the guys who selected him. JMHO Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
viking Posted June 15, 2021 Share Posted June 15, 2021 I haven't read this thread but if the Bears trade Hicks your defence is gonna be a LOT worse. Hicks is a beast 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WindyCity Posted June 15, 2021 Author Share Posted June 15, 2021 6 hours ago, soulman said: Nah..... They paid market price when the player was signed. If that player doesn't produce (injury excepted) it's more on that player and/or the coaches than the guys who selected him. JMHO Market price isn’t the issue. They couldn’t afford the money they spent. Take Covid out of it. The Trevathan, Quinn, Foles deals are all backloaded Frankenstein contracts. They did that because they didn’t actually have the money in 2020 to sign those deals. They were hideous contracts before things got shut down. Covid just made them extra hideous. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
abstract_thought Posted June 15, 2021 Share Posted June 15, 2021 7 hours ago, viking said: I haven't read this thread but if the Bears trade Hicks your defence is gonna be a LOT worse. Hicks is a beast They would probably become a bottom 10 defense without Hicks and Fuller for an entire season. Any injuries would be disastrous. Bears are a lot closer to rebuilding than people think. It might be better to start it now rather than trying to hold on for another 8-9 win season. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WindyCity Posted June 15, 2021 Author Share Posted June 15, 2021 12 minutes ago, abstract_thought said: They would probably become a bottom 10 defense without Hicks and Fuller for an entire season. Any injuries would be disastrous. Bears are a lot closer to rebuilding than people think. It might be better to start it now rather than trying to hold on for another 8-9 win season. I don’t think it would be that disastrous. They would likely be a very average defense, but they would still have a good DL, they would still have 2 elite LBs and an elite FS. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dll2000 Posted June 15, 2021 Share Posted June 15, 2021 There is no point in trading Hicks unless you are using money for something else now like resigning ARob or the trade offer is really good. I can't see anyone offering a high pick for Hicks so it would have to be a money thing. Hicks is probably best leader on defense and the defacto DL coach. He brings so many intangibles losing him comes with more than just losing the player. And I think last two years as shown that defense needs both Hicks and Goldman to stop the run and protect Smith and Trevathan. Without those guys front 7 is just not physical enough as a group. You have to have a plan when you move on from them. With a rookie QB you should have money again going forward for next 4 years. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soulman Posted June 15, 2021 Share Posted June 15, 2021 (edited) 8 hours ago, viking said: I haven't read this thread but if the Bears trade Hicks your defence is gonna be a LOT worse. Hicks is a beast No one will deny that but he's a 31 year old, 10 year vet in the last year of his contract so it's decision time. Do they intend to offer him an extension? Probably not or at least not a longer term one. But if the Bears plan a run at a championship soon he's a guy they'd want to have. That being the case he becomes a FA in 2022 and if he signs elsewhere we may get nothing in return vs trading him in 2021 for a 2022 draft pick. Or do you let him hit FA, see what kind of offers he does get, then possibly try to bring him back for less money. I'd love to keep him for a couple more years and allow him to finish his career in Chicago but how long can a guy whose 6'4"/350lbs and 31 plus years of age gonna keep playing like a beast? Would he accept a shorter term deal like the one year deals Suh has agreed to with Tampa Bay and even then he's not getting much less than Hicks is now. Lot's of questions but fewer answers right now. Edited June 15, 2021 by soulman Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soulman Posted June 15, 2021 Share Posted June 15, 2021 3 hours ago, WindyCity said: Market price isn’t the issue. They couldn’t afford the money they spent. Take Covid out of it. The Trevathan, Quinn, Foles deals are all backloaded Frankenstein contracts. They did that because they didn’t actually have the money in 2020 to sign those deals. They were hideous contracts before things got shut down. Covid just made them extra hideous. You can't take COVID out of it Windy. You don't get that kind of convenience because neither did Pace and Laine. It happened and it's impact on the cap was both as real and unexpected just as it was on the US and the 600,000 who've died. When those deals were made the Bears believed they could afford them. Hindsight may be nice but it doesn't apply in the real world and nobody knows that better then I do. So let's take each deal separately. 1) I've already covered DT's deal with you. Whether they spent on DT or Kwit the amount was roughly the same and one or the others was gonna get paid. Pace stuck with DT for his experience and his leadership. The only thing that can be debated is whether or not the terms of a deal for Kwit would have been different and we could debate it into the 22nd century and still not know. 2) Trading for Foles and that "poison pill" contract deal was something I never liked but we needed another QB to compete with or back Mitch and Dalton was not yet a FA. Blame Cincy for that. So we did what we had to do and I think we can assume Nagy made his own pitch for Foles believing he would pick up the offense faster. If we had a normal preseason he may have. Who knows? 3) I think we're all hoping Quinn doesn't turn out to be another swing and a miss on a high priced FA. If he never produces as expected I'd agree that his signing was another huge blunder we'll all wish (including Pace) hadn't been made but it's not all that hard to see the thinking behind it when Quinn was coming off a very productive season in Dallas. I'll wait final judgement on this one. If we look at it in terms of the 2021 cap at $210 mil and we were looking at $220-$225 mil in 2022 when even more TV money kicks in then any argument about affordability goes out the window. It's only under the current scenario where it becomes an issue and the current scenario is a direct result of COVID so there is no way to discount that.....none. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
abstract_thought Posted June 15, 2021 Share Posted June 15, 2021 1 hour ago, WindyCity said: I don’t think it would be that disastrous. They would likely be a very average defense, but they would still have a good DL, they would still have 2 elite LBs and an elite FS. They were a very average defense last year. Imagine losing both Hicks and Fuller from that average defense without proven replacements. This unit has not been effective with Hicks out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soulman Posted June 15, 2021 Share Posted June 15, 2021 1 hour ago, dll2000 said: There is no point in trading Hicks unless you are using money for something else now like resigning ARob or the trade offer is really good. I can't see anyone offering a high pick for Hicks so it would have to be a money thing. Hicks is probably best leader on defense and the defacto DL coach. He brings so many intangibles losing him comes with more than just losing the player. And I think last two years as shown that defense needs both Hicks and Goldman to stop the run and protect Smith and Trevathan. Without those guys front 7 is just not physical enough as a group. You have to have a plan when you move on from them. With a rookie QB you should have money again going forward for next 4 years. Spot on wall to wall. I don't believe we need to move Hicks in order to sign ARob to a longer term deal. In fact we could probably cut his 2021 cap hit significantly by doing it. Anything we gain from shedding Hicks cap hit would probably go toward Nichols and/or Smith. Getting value for Hicks in trade is questionable at best. That only happens if a team whose solidly in the hunt is willing to pony up a decent 2022 pick for a Suh type DL who can dominate in their DL like Hicks dominates in the Bears DL. It not all that likely to happen. The same rationale for keeping DT over Kwit should also be considered with Hicks. His leadership is almost too valuable to lose. When we present a base defense with Hicks, Goldman, and Nichols that a core front DL averages about 320lbs per man and can not only protect Smith and Trevathan but can also play well enough to pressure and sacks QBs and shut down the run themselves. If we want to field a top 10 defense we need those guys or we need to have others who can offer what they can. Who we have is a 28 year old journeyman FA we signed primarily as a backup and 24 year old rookie 7th round pick who aren't Goldman or Hicks level guys. Tampa Bay has kept Ndamukong Suh around for 3 years with a series of one year deals paying $8-$9 mil per year the last of which has four void years (Windy, are you reading this). Did they overspend if gets them to another SB? If we expect to make runs at a championship in 2022-2023 I would strongly consider either getting Hicks re-signed to a 2-3 year deal or doing what TB with a series of one year deals. He was at a similar age to Hicks when he signed the first of them in 2019. As always JMHO. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WindyCity Posted June 15, 2021 Author Share Posted June 15, 2021 46 minutes ago, soulman said: You can't take COVID out of it Windy. You don't get that kind of convenience because neither did Pace and Laine. It happened and it's impact on the cap was both as real and unexpected just as it was on the US and the 600,000 who've died. When those deals were made the Bears believed they could afford them. Hindsight may be nice but it doesn't apply in the real world and nobody knows that better then I do. So let's take each deal separately. 1) I've already covered DT's deal with you. Whether they spent on DT or Kwit the amount was roughly the same and one or the others was gonna get paid. Pace stuck with DT for his experience and his leadership. The only thing that can be debated is whether or not the terms of a deal for Kwit would have been different and we could debate it into the 22nd century and still not know. 2) Trading for Foles and that "poison pill" contract deal was something I never liked but we needed another QB to compete with or back Mitch and Dalton was not yet a FA. Blame Cincy for that. So we did what we had to do and I think we can assume Nagy made his own pitch for Foles believing he would pick up the offense faster. If we had a normal preseason he may have. Who knows? 3) I think we're all hoping Quinn doesn't turn out to be another swing and a miss on a high priced FA. If he never produces as expected I'd agree that his signing was another huge blunder we'll all wish (including Pace) hadn't been made but it's not all that hard to see the thinking behind it when Quinn was coming off a very productive season in Dallas. I'll wait final judgement on this one. If we look at it in terms of the 2021 cap at $210 mil and we were looking at $220-$225 mil in 2022 when even more TV money kicks in then any argument about affordability goes out the window. It's only under the current scenario where it becomes an issue and the current scenario is a direct result of COVID so there is no way to discount that.....none. They bought Quinn, Foles, and Trevathan on credit. Covid 100% screwed that up. But whether they thought they could afford them or not, the contracts are still hideous. I can think I can afford a Bentley, it does not change the fact that realistically I cannot. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WindyCity Posted June 15, 2021 Author Share Posted June 15, 2021 37 minutes ago, abstract_thought said: They were a very average defense last year. Imagine losing both Hicks and Fuller from that average defense without proven replacements. This unit has not been effective with Hicks out. It was an average defense last season. But they also played a big chunk of the year without Hicks. They played the entire season without Goldman and Quinn sucked worse than any could have dreamed. I don’t see a defense with this level of talent being bottom 10. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
abstract_thought Posted June 15, 2021 Share Posted June 15, 2021 2 minutes ago, WindyCity said: It was an average defense last season. But they also played a big chunk of the year without Hicks. They played the entire season without Goldman and Quinn sucked worse than any could have dreamed. I don’t see a defense with this level of talent being bottom 10. Hicks started 15 games last season... He may have been banged up, but he was playing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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