Mid Season: State of the Nation

[Chali21]

3 hours ago, big_palooka said:

Has he not proven it? Norton/Downing prove he's not capable of building a good enough staff around him. Baring a total meltdown, he will remain the coach. Question is, will he admit mistakes and upgrade his assistants finally.

Personally committing to another year, is just another waste of time. You already know who JDR is and what he can get you. It's not a championship, so why invest more into him?

Ok so who is that championship level coach?

[big_palooka]

23 minutes ago, Chali21 said:

Ok so who is that championship level coach?

Not sure. That has to be evaluated. I know it's not JDR. Front offices job to find the guy that can lift the talent to the next level. 

Sean Peyton would be my first choice. Depending on what happens with Brees and if the Saints go a different direction next year, hard to tell. He's a guy I'd trade for if needed to take the offense to new championship heights. 

[big_palooka]

So frustrating reading this stuff from people who know the game. What's more is Carr was suppose to be in more control of the offense? Did he ask for this or is he just working in Downing's framework? 

[Rich7sena]

9 hours ago, big_palooka said:

Has he not proven it?

Since you want to get rid of Del Rio so bad, who do you have in mind? Or do you just want to keep the position vacant until a "Super Bowl" head coach comes along?

The prudent thing to do is to give Del Rio another year with a new DC, even if it's mainly for the sake of continuity.

 

[Chali21]

3 hours ago, big_palooka said:

So frustrating reading this stuff from people who know the game. What's more is Carr was suppose to be in more control of the offense? Did he ask for this or is he just working in Downing's framework? 

It’s in line with the idea that he’s moving the offense towards his college offense. Throw the ball to your playmakers andhope they win their matchups. That works in college when your WRs are the best in MWC not so much when they play against better competition. This a problem in the NFL when DBs are great and coordinators can scheme very well. 

[big_palooka]

1 hour ago, Rich7sena said:

Since you want to get rid of Del Rio so bad, who do you have in mind? Or do you just want to keep the position vacant until a "Super Bowl" head coach comes along?

The prudent thing to do is to give Del Rio another year with a new DC, even if it's mainly for the sake of continuity.

 

No issue keeping JDR if he's willing to build a stronger staff. Let him be the motivator, but invest in a quality DC who can run HIS scheme (not JDR's) and an OC who can lift the offense and take care to the next level of consistency.

[raiderrocker18]

Downing is a rookie coordinator who has been a downgrade to an experienced coordinator that had 2 very good seasons for us. It is worth second guessing prioritizing Downing over Musgrave. That said,  Downing will likely improve with experience. 

The defense has shown improvement this year despite the secondary being rocked with injury. I think we need to give the keys to Pagano and give KNJ his walking papers. 

I think del rio is fine. Players aren't quitting on him or anything like that. 

Banking on lynch has backfired and refusing to invest at MLB has gone bad too. Carr seems to have gotten "used" to success and seems to be playing with the mindset that success will find him. He's not lasering throws and rather lofts them towards the sideline. Touch is nice but he needs to let it rip too 

[big_palooka]

26 minutes ago, raiderrocker18 said:

Downing is a rookie coordinator who has been a downgrade to an experienced coordinator that had 2 very good seasons for us. It is worth second guessing prioritizing Downing over Musgrave. That said,  Downing will likely improve with experience. 

The defense has shown improvement this year despite the secondary being rocked with injury. I think we need to give the keys to Pagano and give KNJ his walking papers. 

I think del rio is fine. Players aren't quitting on him or anything like that. 

Banking on lynch has backfired and refusing to invest at MLB has gone bad too. Carr seems to have gotten "used" to success and seems to be playing with the mindset that success will find him. He's not lasering throws and rather lofts them towards the sideline. Touch is nice but he needs to let it rip too 

I keep hearing this, but it's not true. This is a effect of the offense being terrible. 

The pass rush is still missing. They are not creating turnovers. Coverage is suspect. They've been exposed in both the run and pass games at various points. I see the same unit as a year ago.

[drfrey13]

Reasons for excitement: 

1) We have had a few injuries that have slowed us down.  Getting everyone healthy should help especially in the secondary where we could add a lot of speed.

2) We could easily be 5-3 instead of 3-5.

3) Turnovers, turnovers, turnovers!  Carr is not taking care of the ball and we somehow are the only team without an interception.  Turn this around and we are 5-3 or 6-2. Last year at this time we were 6-2 with a plus 7 in turnovers.  This year 3-5 with a negative 6.  

Reasons for pessimism:

1)  Can the rookies upgrade the secondary?  History has shown that rookie DBs that miss the early parts of the year tend to have very little effect when they get to play.

2) Coordinators!  We are getting out-coached almost every week.  If Reid has a full week to prepare for us I would bet we lose.  KNJ has still shown very little in his ability to build or coach a defense.  Downing in his first year is more of a ? but taking a top O and making it below average is concerning.

3) Turnovers, turnovers, turnovers!  Carr has the same amount of interceptions as he did all of last year and the D has zero interceptions.  I expected some regression from last years amazing year, with it a drop in wins, but this turn around is a little bit to much to place the blame on the ball not bouncing our way.

Keys:

1) Carr/Downing getting his head on straight.

2) Speed in the secondary.

3) Taking care of the football.

[drfrey13]

3 minutes ago, big_palooka said:

I keep hearing this, but it's not true. This is a effect of the offense being terrible. 

The pass rush is still missing. They are not creating turnovers. Coverage is suspect. They've been exposed in both the run and pass games at various points. I see the same unit as a year ago.

Completely agree.  I like to call it the Asomugha Illusion. Put someone really bad opposite you and you look unbeatable because there is no need to challenge you.  Nmandi looked real good covering the decoy routes.  Our pass D looked better than it was because teams would get a little lead and then just pound the rock.  No way Brooks, Walter, or any other garbage QB we put out there was going to come from behind.

[Rich7sena]

2 hours ago, drfrey13 said:

Completely agree.  I like to call it the Asomugha Illusion. Put someone really bad opposite you and you look unbeatable because there is no need to challenge you.  Nmandi looked real good covering the decoy routes.  Our pass D looked better than it was because teams would get a little lead and then just pound the rock.  No way Brooks, Walter, or any other garbage QB we put out there was going to come from behind.

I think for all intents and purposes it's the same unit, but the defensive line has played better. I'd also say on the season, the team has tackled markedly better too. That said, the secondary has regressed from what was already a bad unit.

[Chali21]

12 hours ago, big_palooka said:

I keep hearing this, but it's not true. This is a effect of the offense being terrible. 

The pass rush is still missing. They are not creating turnovers. Coverage is suspect. They've been exposed in both the run and pass games at various points. I see the same unit as a year ago.

You’re right in it’s the same level defensively but in the secondary the talent has totally dropped. Amerson and Conely have been injured which has opened the door to extended playing time for McDonald, Carrie and Smith all of which would be backups on most teams. Injuries have plagued the safeties as well with Obi being out. I’m sure if he was healthy he’d be starting or really heavy in the rotation. The linebackers have been a complete failure but that was to be expected, however there is some improvement in the younger players. The D-line it’s a total mystery. I mean would they be better if the secondary could cover their WRs TEs and backs? I think so but the DBs are getting beat too quickly. Honestly to me it comes down to a massive lack of talent on the back end. If the Raiders could cover this defense would totally come alive. One stat that I do think is impressive is the defense is ranked 3rd in the red zone. That tells me that if the offense would actually score this team would probably be better. I know most obvious thing ever but they fail at the fundamentals so it shouldn’t be a surprise. 

[raiderrocker18]

18 hours ago, big_palooka said:

I keep hearing this, but it's not true. This is a effect of the offense being terrible. 

The pass rush is still missing. They are not creating turnovers. Coverage is suspect. They've been exposed in both the run and pass games at various points. I see the same unit as a year ago.

We are also dead last in time of possession. Thats a big deal. The Baltimore game is the one time the defense let us down early. 

[Rolni]

The thing is that I would only keep JDR if he is able to put together a quality coaching staff.

The other thing is that he fails to do so for many years now as a HC, which should worry us IMO.

 

The best option which I can think of right now is if the Bucs fire Koetter and JDR bring in his old duo. Koetter as OC and Smith as DC. 

Wouldn't be a flashy hire, but I would be willing to give JDR a year with those guys. Neither would be a top coordinator, but both would be a veteran guy, with a proven back ground.

Koetter should absolutely be better then Downing and Smith is also would be an improvement over Norton.

At DC Pagano could be an option, but the fact that he is already here and the D is pretty much the same makes me uncertain about him.

 

Who else could be realistic option?

[Chali21]

3 hours ago, Rolni said:

The thing is that I would only keep JDR if he is able to put together a quality coaching staff.

The other thing is that he fails to do so for many years now as a HC, which should worry us IMO.

 

The best option which I can think of right now is if the Bucs fire Koetter and JDR bring in his old duo. Koetter as OC and Smith as DC. 

Wouldn't be a flashy hire, but I would be willing to give JDR a year with those guys. Neither would be a top coordinator, but both would be a veteran guy, with a proven back ground.

Koetter should absolutely be better then Downing and Smith is also would be an improvement over Norton.

At DC Pagano could be an option, but the fact that he is already here and the D is pretty much the same makes me uncertain about him.

 

Who else could be realistic option?

I think we need to take into account that the defense has had heavy losses in the backend. Obi, Conley, Amerson and Joesph have all been injured. That's literally the starters that they envisioned. Imagine if  the offense lost  Cooper Crabtree Smith and Lynch, the offense would be way worse. They have 3rd stringers and seventh round picks playing back there, it's not totally ideal. I know that Pagano can field a good defense because he has in SD so if he stayed I'd be okay with it.