Staff Overhaul for 2022 - Discuss, debate, deliberate..... uh, d-speculate...

[soulman]

3 hours ago, dll2000 said:

With c and d - you have to reward play making and punish bad play.  You have to.   Nagy does not do this and Pace is on board with it.  This is crucial to being a good coach or manager and he fails to recognize it.

This is one of the more puzzling things for me to sort out and I sometimes wonder if somehow GMcC isn't at least somewhat to blame.

During his "State of the Team" presser last January he was big on beating the collaboration drum.  His GM and his HC marching in lock step towards a year of vast offensive improvement.  I'm not advocating that internal spats be aired in public but if Pace can plainly see that Nagy's methods aren't working or even if his own personnel decisions are proving wrong then step up and say so.  Take the bull by the horns and insist on immediate changes.  Justin Fields could have been playing like this much earlier if given half a chance to prove himself as a starter.

I'm not certain how many of the members here were old enough to know all of what was going on with the '85 Bears both prior to '85 and after but it was anything but peaceful and collaborative.  Ditka and Buddy Ryan fought like an old unhappy married couple both on and off the field.  Ditka would scream at Mac for changing a run play to a pass play or vice versa.  Mac would tell him to phuc off.  The defense was at war with the offense.  Buddy Ryan called Fridge a wasted draft pick so Ditka made a fullback out of him until Buddy finally started playing him at DT.

It was like a daytime soap opera every week and every weekend yet out of that chaos came one of the finest Bears teams ever assembled.  In every way an equal to the dominant Bears teams of the early-mid 1940s.  Even without Buddy Ryan had Mac been able to stay healthy or Mikey McCaskey wouldn't have been such a cheapskate and spent $$$ on a competent #2 QB instead of losing players because he wouldn't pay them the Bears could have won at least one or two more Super Bowls.  The one guy GSH pleaded with Ginny not to be allowed to run the Bears did.

Case in point.  The McCaskeys have been shooting themselves and their team in the foot for almost 40 years because they don't know how to run an NFL Franchise well at all.  So if Ryan Pace isn't perfect and the very best GM we can hire then IMHO at least some of the blame needs to fall at the feet of GMcC and the McCaskeys for creating an archaic infrastructure many very capable NFL execs and/or personnel guys would not want to work under.  I'll give some credit to Ryan Pace for having created at least some cracks in that decades old facade and modernizing the Bears.

I surely don't know what the very best way out of this fix is.  I only go by my instincts and gut feeling that Pace has already detached himself from Nagy by now knowing that he can't save his job and that he needs to focus on saving his own.  Mitch was a misfire as a QB.  Not a bad player as much as not the right player for the Bears and Matt Nagy.  Fields is not a misfire but IMHO for him to become what's gonna expected of him it can't be under Matt Nagy as the Bears HC.  I think by now that much is and has been acknowledged in the Bears front office and ownership.

I also believe that Pace's contract was already extended to match Nagy's so Pace is under contract for 2022.  GMcC and Teddy Bears will not want to go it alone having to hire both a new GM and a new HC so unless they already have Ryan Pace's replacement lined up now my guess is Pace will stay on and get to hire another HC.  He missed on Mitch but he seems to have hit on Fields so he's learned from his mistakes in that regard.  Let's hope he's also learned how he managed to misjudge Matt Nagy as badly as he did and that will help him in hiring a new HC.  I'll give him that much.

[AZBearsFan]

On 11/9/2021 at 8:39 AM, abstract_thought said:

A football guy recommended Pace and Fox.

Ok… and since that didn’t go well last time we should do what then - not want football guys deciding who should run the football team? The best way to drive a car is with your eyes open and not closed - does that mean if I crash a car driving with my eyes open that I should stop driving with them open too, because it went poorly the last time?

On 11/9/2021 at 8:39 AM, abstract_thought said:

Ozzie Newsome was a successful GM who worked for the Ravens for 22 years before he stepped down. Ryan Pace has not been a success with the Bears. And he's certainly not shown a knack for hiring talented football people.

Newsome’s success as a GM isn’t in question but it wasn’t my point - my point was that now that he’s not GM he’s hands off with DeCosta. My whole point was that if Pace won’t be fired (and I want him to be) then him getting kicked upstairs and out of the day-to-day operation is better than him staying on as GM. It certainly wouldn’t be my first choice. 

On 11/9/2021 at 8:39 AM, abstract_thought said:

I can agree that football ops should have autonomy. But that's a separate issue from keeping Pace. If McCaskey wants to be involved in football decisions, he's going to be involved. It doesn't matter if the EVP is Ryan Pace or someone else.

Of course, but I don’t think he wants to meddle. I think he tries to not meddle, at least in personnel. His fingerprints seem to be on the HC job security though, which I don’t like at all, and I don’t know if adding an EVP changes that or not.

Personally I’m pretty convinced unless we go 7-1 the rest of the way (which we almost certainly won’t) that Nagy is gone after this year. Pace, on the other hand, has far better arguments to stay as GM depending on how the 2nd half goes. He’s the primary reason we’re limited on cap space and picks next year again. No question. BUT, his aggression in moving up to get Fields can make all of that matter less, because it seems like Fields might be THAT DUDE. Plus, his other biggest faux pas (not putting enough into building the OL) potentially might be largely rectified too. Borom looks like a legit player as a 5th round rookie, and if Jenkins does too when he’s back presumably in the next few weeks then we’re looking at bookend starting OTs on rookie deals for the next 3 years on non-1st round contracts to go with our rookie deal QB. Kmet seems to be rounding into being an asset too. As far as Pace goes, in the eyes of ownership that could change everything. It could certainly go the other way too. Borom could fall off a cliff and Jenkins could never become what we thought and maybe never even get healthy. Fields could show the past 2 week’s progress to have been a brief flash. We won’t know until we do, but my point is that, at least for Pace, the nails aren’t in the coffin just yet. 

Pace’s biggest problem in the draft hasn’t been his success rate IMO - it’s that when he’s missed he’s missed HUUUUUUUGE with Mitch, Shaheen and White (though his rash of season-ending injuries is more serious bad luck than a miss per se), and to a lesser extent Miller (pretty good as a rookie and sporadically afterward) and an even lesser extent Floyd (always solid but never lived up to the draft status). There’s no question he hit a home run with Roquan and probably a bases clearing double with Jaylon. Whitehair is a solid mainstay. Daniels is an average starter who’s still just 24 by the way. Goldman is a stud in his role. Pace has crushed the draft at RB without using any higher than a 3rd rounder on it, and his ability to find quality DL continues to be really impressive. We aren’t at the top of the league talent-wise, but the cupboards aren’t bare either by any means, and if the QB is legit they’ll look even less bare even before we add upgrades.

With a decent or better 2nd half showing from the offense Pace can easily argue to George that his miss on Mitch has been rectified with Fields, thus rewarding George for having faith in him to get it right the second time, and that the foundation for a young successful offense to build around him is now in place with Montgomery and Herbert, Mooney, Kmet and NFL level talent across the OL (though Mustipher is just a guy IMO). He probably shouldn’t have gotten that second chance at QB, but that’s water under the bridge now, and when he did he seems to have gotten it right which almost certainly buys him more rope despite the on field failures which he can lay at the feet of Nagy (“I gave Matt the tools and he couldn’t come through. [Insert Coach] is the guy to take what we’ve built and turn it into a consistent contender.”) Fans definitely won’t like it, including me (I woulda fired him last offseason), but if you’re in George’s shoes it’s a decently compelling argument, especially coming from someone you like to begin with. 

[abstract_thought]

13 hours ago, AZBearsFan said:

Ok… and since that didn’t go well last time we should do what then - not want football guys deciding who should run the football team? The best way to drive a car is with your eyes open and not closed - does that mean if I crash a car driving with my eyes open that I should stop driving with them open too, because it went poorly the last time?

Not all football guys are equal. The alternative to bad football guys making decisions should be good football guys making decisions.

13 hours ago, AZBearsFan said:

My whole point was that if Pace won’t be fired (and I want him to be) then him getting kicked upstairs and out of the day-to-day operation is better than him staying on as GM.

If the Bears won't fire Pace, I can think of a number of other ways they can continue to employ him. If what he's done with HH is so impressive, then put him on the Arlington project. Just don't put him anywhere near the levers of control of football operations and certainly don't allow him to hire more bad football people.

13 hours ago, AZBearsFan said:

foundation for a young successful offense to build around him is now in place with Montgomery and Herbert, Mooney, Kmet and NFL level talent across the OL (though Mustipher is just a guy IMO).

Kmet and Mooney are just guys. And that OL with NFL-level talent is the worst in the NFL. The only proven piece is Montgomery, who is an above-average RB. If that's the foundation on offense, Bears shouldn't bother with the building.

If you want to hunt for reasons to keep Pace around, you can take the rosy outlook on all of these young players. But Bears fans have done that for years, and yet here we are.

[Sugashane]

1 hour ago, abstract_thought said:

Not all football guys are equal. The alternative to bad football guys making decisions should be good football guys making decisions.

If the Bears won't fire Pace, I can think of a number of other ways they can continue to employ him. If what he's done with HH is so impressive, then put him on the Arlington project. Just don't put him anywhere near the levers of control of football operations and certainly don't allow him to hire more bad football people.

Kmet and Mooney are just guys. And that OL with NFL-level talent is the worst in the NFL. The only proven piece is Montgomery, who is an above-average RB. If that's the foundation on offense, Bears shouldn't bother with the building.

If you want to hunt for reasons to keep Pace around, you can take the rosy outlook on all of these young players. But Bears fans have done that for years, and yet here we are.

 

I'll take the OL a step further. I don't think Daniels is worth re-signing for more then $3 mil per year, Borom and Jenkins are the only ones worth keeping ATM, and if Whitehair doesn't step up tremendously next year then I'm willing to eat the $8mil dead cap. In fact if I could find someone willing to eat his salary I would trade back in a round with a team to take him off our hands (like trading our 2nd rounder for theirs that is 4-10 spots back).

 

I'd keep Peters over anyone not named Borom, Jenkins, or Bars right now. After Peters I would keep Ifedi at OG.

 

I'd be ok with entering the FA period looking like: Jenkins - Peters - Bars - Ifedi - Borom    That isn't a great OL but at least it won't be grossly overpaid to be below average. If we can get a talented OL in the 2nd then plug them in and put one of the interior guys as the "big" moving blocker. Same if we can get a mean guy inside that is better than Peters, Bars, or Ifedi. Regardless, the borderline feminine blocking we are seeing from some of the guys is happening WAY too regularly.

I want a mean, athletic OL (likely undersized for the actual OL) to go to FB to be a thug. If Bars can be that guy or we convert a rookie to that role I want our own Boyle and Ricard. They don't make plays in getting yardage but the allow Jackson and Co a LOT of extra yards by being an extremely physical presence. I want someone who plays like Richie Incognito BEFORE the whistle. 5-7 maulers (blocking TE and FB) all out there trying to see who can bury the most defensive players. I'd legit (as an owner, GM or HC) put a $10,000 reward for the most pancakes per game if possible. We lack the mean streak of a lot of great OLs.

 

Kmet is JAG and has been invisible in over half the games this year. Maybe in a real system he gets better but he just doesn't look like an NFL caliber athlete to me, one of the big issues I had with him at ND. Mooney isn't a number one but can do well if he gets one ahead of him. ARob has been a massive disappointment this year. Goodwin can still be a decent depth guy but I hope Newsome can be the quick slot guy that we can use as a safety net. Monty is solid but his contract will be the turning point of him being worth keeping or not. He isn't anywhere near Henry, Kamara, Elliott when they earned their big deals. He is a solid back but not near worth a top 5 deal.

[AZBearsFan]

6 hours ago, abstract_thought said:

Not all football guys are equal. The alternative to bad football guys making decisions should be good football guys making decisions.

6 hours ago, abstract_thought said:

If the Bears won't fire Pace, I can think of a number of other ways they can continue to employ him. If what he's done with HH is so impressive, then put him on the Arlington project. Just don't put him anywhere near the levers of control of football operations and certainly don't allow him to hire more bad football people.

The chances they keep Pace but put him exclusively on the AH project are incredibly unlikely. We both know that. Is he a great football guy? No. But if it’s either him or George choosing our next GM, especially knowing George will be seeking input and advice from the owners of our competition in making that hire? For me Pace is the far better of the two choices to make that decision. He at least has some football acumen. Neither is the guy I want making that decision. Like I said - I would have fired Pace last year.

 

6 hours ago, abstract_thought said:

Kmet and Mooney are just guys. And that OL with NFL-level talent is the worst in the NFL. The only proven piece is Montgomery, who is an above-average RB. If that's the foundation on offense, Bears shouldn't bother with the building.

If you want to hunt for reasons to keep Pace around, you can take the rosy outlook on all of these young players. But Bears fans have done that for years, and yet here we are.

Your truncating my full quote cuts out the caveat I attached to the statement. I bolded below the part you quoted from the full quote:

21 hours ago, AZBearsFan said:

With a decent or better 2nd half showing from the offense Pace can easily argue to George that his miss on Mitch has been rectified with Fields, thus rewarding George for having faith in him to get it right the second time, and that the foundation for a young successful offense to build around him is now in place with Montgomery and Herbert, Mooney, Kmet and NFL level talent across the OL (though Mustipher is just a guy IMO).

Mooney isn’t a star but he isn’t just a guy either. He’d be a starting #2 in a real offense, and his chemistry with Fields is obvious. I’m more skeptical of Kmet but the more he’s worked with Fields the better he’s looked, most notably the past 2 weeks. Both are trending upward, and both are in their 2nd year, one in which they’re working with a rookie QB through rookie QB ups and downs. You call it a rosy outlook but what it really is is one that’s looking at young skill position players and thinking they’ll continue to improve. They’re both a year and a half in at this point. To think they won’t continue to improve at least somewhat is pretty naive.

The OL is a different story in terms of experience. The tackles are rookies but Daniels is in year 4. He probably is what he is. What that is is a middle of the road starter. He’s not great and never will be, but he’s not terrible. Whitehair is also not great but he’s an above average guard. Mustipher is the clear weakest link IMO - he should be our reserve C next year. But again, my caveat in the quoted statement was the preface “With a decent or better 2nd half showing from the offense…”. It wasn’t a definitive statement about where we’re at today, but where we might be in January. The two things aren’t necessarily the same, and that’s going to be largely driven by what happens at OT the next 8 games.

5 hours ago, Sugashane said:

I'll take the OL a step further. I don't think Daniels is worth re-signing for more then $3 mil per year, Borom and Jenkins are the only ones worth keeping ATM, and if Whitehair doesn't step up tremendously next year then I'm willing to eat the $8mil dead cap. In fact if I could find someone willing to eat his salary I would trade back in a round with a team to take him off our hands (like trading our 2nd rounder for theirs that is 4-10 spots back).

5 hours ago, Sugashane said:

Monty is solid but his contract will be the turning point of him being worth keeping or not. He isn't anywhere near Henry, Kamara, Elliott when they earned their big deals. He is a solid back but not near worth a top 5 deal.

You’re not going to see me stumping for big deals for either Daniels or Monty.

Daniels is an adequate starter but he’s not a stud. I can’t see him getting a big contract next year here or elsewhere unless he makes huge strides in the next 2 months. To me $3-4M on a 1-2 year deal for him is probably what I’d be willing to pay. I’d prefer someone in the Kyle Long mold too, though to be fair I don’t think when they drafted Daniels they intended him to be a guard either. I think the plan was for him to be a center and that didn’t pan out. I like Whitehair more than you. We could use to improve but we also can’t afford to take on $12M in dead cap moving on from him and expect to be able to find an immediate upgrade for 2022. If he’s your worst OL then your OL is in good shape, and if we can upgrade at guard then he can play center too and would be an upgrade over Mustipher there for sure. In fact when Ifedi is back healthy I’d look to move Whitehair to C now and put Ifedi at OG.

I think Bars is just a depth guy though. He’s been on the team 3 years and found himself in the starting lineup several times under multiple OL coaches but has never been able to keep himself in the lineup. He’s experienced multi-position depth, which means he’s a guy I’d like on the roster for a long time but not one I want to have to count on going into the season. Ideally for me our backups on the OL next year are Mustipher, Bars and someone capable at swing tackle. With our cap situation next year we need experienced depth at a bargain cost. Mustipher is an ERFA who will cost basically the minimum to keep and who might have 24 starts under his belt by season’s end. There’s legit value in that. Bars is a RFA who will also cost almost nothing, and he can back up at least 3 positions for you.

I’m a huge Monty fan but paying RBs just doesn’t make sense in this NFL unless they’re Henry. We didn’t miss a beat with Herbert as a runner. I’d pay Monty around the range of what we gave Cohen but that’s about it, and I don’t think that’ll be enough to keep him around once he hits FA. Cohen is as good as gone in 2022 already IMO. His 2022 salary fully guarantees in March (it’s guaranteed for injury already). Getting him healthy and then getting him out of here going into next year’s FA will allow us to add a player of more consequence with it. 

[Sugashane]

31 minutes ago, AZBearsFan said:

You’re not going to see me stumping for big deals for either Daniels or Monty.

Daniels is an adequate starter but he’s not a stud. I can’t see him getting a big contract next year here or elsewhere unless he makes huge strides in the next 2 months. To me $3-4M on a 1-2 year deal for him is probably what I’d be willing to pay. I’d prefer someone in the Kyle Long mold too, though to be fair I don’t think when they drafted Daniels they intended him to be a guard either. I think the plan was for him to be a center and that didn’t pan out. I like Whitehair more than you. We could use to improve but we also can’t afford to take on $12M in dead cap moving on from him and expect to be able to find an immediate upgrade for 2022. If he’s your worst OL then your OL is in good shape, and if we can upgrade at guard then he can play center too and would be an upgrade over Mustipher there for sure. In fact when Ifedi is back healthy I’d look to move Whitehair to C now and put Ifedi at OG.

I think Bars is just a depth guy though. He’s been on the team 3 years and found himself in the starting lineup several times under multiple OL coaches but has never been able to keep himself in the lineup. He’s experienced multi-position depth, which means he’s a guy I’d like on the roster for a long time but not one I want to have to count on going into the season. Ideally for me our backups on the OL next year are Mustipher, Bars and someone capable at swing tackle. With our cap situation next year we need experienced depth at a bargain cost. Mustipher is an ERFA who will cost basically the minimum to keep and who might have 24 starts under his belt by season’s end. There’s legit value in that. Bars is a RFA who will also cost almost nothing, and he can back up at least 3 positions for you.

I’m a huge Monty fan but paying RBs just doesn’t make sense in this NFL unless they’re Henry. We didn’t miss a beat with Herbert as a runner. I’d pay Monty around the range of what we gave Cohen but that’s about it, and I don’t think that’ll be enough to keep him around once he hits FA. Cohen is as good as gone in 2022 already IMO. His 2022 salary fully guarantees in March (it’s guaranteed for injury already). Getting him healthy and then getting him out of here going into next year’s FA will allow us to add a player of more consequence with it. 

Agree. Daniels to me is Garza. If he is your weakest starter you've done damn well. If he isn't you've screwed up IMO. I want the same for Whitehair. We're stuck with him unless some team would take on his deal somehow (like the Foles deal for us and JAX) but no one will. So we cant cut him until after the 2022 season. Might as well put him at C and give someone like Bars or Ifedi a shot at G.

Bars I don't think will be a good starter but I'd like to see him get a shot over Mustipher, who I am really sour on. Again I want to bully people in the trenches so he can take on multiple roles too. Be the swing G and a short yard FB, or get an athletic undersized OT from a college and make him the blocking TE. IDC but we haven't really had an OL that consistently could beat up DLs since we had Bushrod, Slauson, Garza, Long, and Mills. When we got Leno and Massie the OL just got soft IMO. I want us to approach the OL like DAL does, TB or like BAL does. We just don't put that priority there and it has shown for years.

Agree totally. I like Monty but he doesnt really alter the game, you just love seeing a guy fight like he does though. He's someone I'd be damn happy to see play his whole career for the Bears but not someone it will really suck to see play elsewhere like Peanut or Olsen.

[AZBearsFan]

3 minutes ago, Sugashane said:

IDC but we haven't really had an OL that consistently could beat up DLs since we had Bushrod, Slauson, Garza, Long, and Mills. When we got Leno and Massie the OL just got soft IMO. I want us to approach the OL like DAL does, TB or like BAL does. We just don't put that priority there and it has shown for years.

Jenkins is that kind of “I’m gonna kick your *** for 3 hours” attitude guy. Can’t get him in there soon enough IMO. 

[soulman]

9 hours ago, abstract_thought said:

If the Bears won't fire Pace, I can think of a number of other ways they can continue to employ him. If what he's done with HH is so impressive, then put him on the Arlington project. Just don't put him anywhere near the levers of control of football operations and certainly don't allow him to hire more bad football people.

That's Ted Phillips baliwick.  He was the guy who negotiated the renovation of SF.  Let's just hope he does a better job of it this time.  Plus if you assign Pace to the Arlington project instead of Teddy Bears wouldn't that leave Ted still involved with making football decisions?  So.....if it came down to that who would you prefer working the football side, Pace or Teddy Bears?

9 hours ago, abstract_thought said:

Kmet and Mooney are just guys. And that OL with NFL-level talent is the worst in the NFL. The only proven piece is Montgomery, who is an above-average RB. If that's the foundation on offense, Bears shouldn't bother with the building.

Wow, aren't we being a Negative Nelly today.  Kmet is beginning to break out as a receiver (finally) and Mooney is a guy they envision possibly becoming a #1 WR.  Mooney is in line for a 1000 yards receiving this year and Kmet maybe half that or a bit more and both are in just their second year in the NFL.  No one is claiming they're All Pros but they're surely part of a foundation of younger talent at skill positions.

 

Look, no one is gonna cry themselves to sleep at night if Pace is fired come January but it may be wiser to assume that he won't.  Just a thought.

[AZBearsFan]

4 minutes ago, soulman said:

Look, no one is gonna cry themselves to sleep at night if Pace is fired come January but it may be wiser to assume that he won't.  Just a thought.

This is all I’ve been trying to say. I think the case for cutting ties with Nagy is a far simpler one than that with Pace despite his obvious shortcomings. He missed on Mitch… but might have hit HUGE on Fields. Pace botched the Robinson contract situation… but he also landed him as a FA. The Mack trade, while it was costly and didn’t put us over the top largely because of Mitch’s shortcomings, was a bold move that added a transcendent edge rusher in his prime. He drafted Roquan. He signed Akiem Hicks as a FA then extended him. Those three have been the primary stalwarts in a defense Pace built that’s carried this team for the past several years. He was right in letting Cam Meredith leave when it wasn’t necessarily popular. He was right in letting Bryce Callahan leave when it wasn’t popular. He was crushed for letting Kyle Fuller leave, and despite the fact that Vildor has stunk it has to be pointed out that Fuller has been dreadful in DEN this year too which IMO makes that the right decision too given the relative cost savings. Pace gets credit for that stuff too. That’s not to say it cancels out the well documented bad moves. It doesn’t. But I can’t just sit here and pretend he hasn’t had any successes here either.

Wanting them to move on from Pace this offseason (which I do) and understanding the argument that might be made for not moving on from Pace this offseason despite disagreeing with it (which I also do) are not mutually exclusive things. If they keep Pace going into 2022 I won’t be happy with it and won’t agree with the decision, but I’ll understand it. 

[soulman]

Man, I'm reading some good thinking in here but it's also interlaced with a whole lot of pissing and moaning and unrealistic "I want this" kinda ****.

This ain't Madden Football mi amigos.  Ya' gotta build your team around what you have and a little on who you think you might be able to get.

My advice is simple.  Stop evaluating every God damn player on the basis of what they've been able to do in this offense or defense.  Nagy is a drowning man who ran his own boat into the rocks.  He all about trying to win just enough to save his job and very little about being overly concerned with anyone but Fields right now who he hopes may actually save his job for him.  It won't work.  Nagy will be fired in January.

Desai is a rookie DC who according to all who know him have described him as a very intelligent guy with some great ideas many mined from coaching under Vic Fangio.  He's had to deal with injuries to aging yet key defenders and he also has to deal with a secondary that's full of holes yet he's still a long way from fielding what we saw under Mel Tucker.  Give the guy a chance.  He may prove to me HC material eventually.

As for Pace.  It makes no difference what any of us would like to see happen.  The McCaskeys like him, trust him, and seem willing to ride with him at least long enough to have him run a search for a new HC and staff.  He's messed up some stuff big time but he's also pulled off some great trades and found real NFL talent on Day 3 of the draft.  As sure as I am that Nagy will be fired I'm just as certain that Pace will not be.

Given the cap situation we're in, our lack of a top 1st round draft pick again, and the dead cap involved with certain player contracts we aren't gonna see the kind of roster turn over some of you would prefer so get used to it.  We need to fill some holes.  That much I agree on.  But what we really need more than anything else is far better coaching and development of the talent we do have.  That priority should come first.

So focus on that and stop whining about the rest.  We finally have a QB we believe we can win big with.  If Pace stay he needs to get him all of the tools he needs to succeed including the right HC and staff.  If he screws that up again then I'll be first in line to help pay for his ticket out of town but for now we need to stay focused on what's possible not what our imaginations would like to see happen that can't.

In other words.....keep your wet dreams to yourself.  😁

[soulman]

11 minutes ago, AZBearsFan said:

This is all I’ve been trying to say. I think the case for cutting ties with Nagy is a far simpler one than that with Pace despite his obvious shortcomings. He missed on Mitch… but might have hit HUGE on Fields. Pace botched the Robinson contract situation… but he also landed him as a FA. The Mack trade, while it was costly and didn’t put us over the top largely because of Mitch’s shortcomings, was a bold move that added a transcendent edge rusher in his prime. He drafted Roquan. He signed Akiem Hicks as a FA then extended him. Those three have been the primary stalwarts in a defense Pace built that’s carried this team for the past several years. He was right in letting Cam Meredith leave when it wasn’t necessarily popular. He was right in letting Bryce Callahan leave when it wasn’t popular. He was crushed for letting Kyle Fuller leave, and despite the fact that Vildor has stunk it has to be pointed out that Fuller has been dreadful in DEN this year too which IMO makes that the right decision too given the relative cost savings. Pace gets credit for that stuff too. That’s not to say it cancels out the well documented bad moves. It doesn’t. But I can’t just sit here and pretend he hasn’t had any successes here either.

Wanting them to move on from Pace this offseason (which I do) and understanding the argument that might be made for not moving on from Pace this offseason despite disagreeing with it (which I also do) are not mutually exclusive things. If they keep Pace going into 2022 I won’t be happy with it and won’t agree with the decision, but I’ll understand it. 

Moving on from Pace is based on an assumption we can do better, right?  How well did that work out when Teddy Bears and GMcC fired JA and replaced him with Phil Emery.  So their next move was to bring in Ernie Accorsi who very neatly packaged Fox with Pace so Teddy and GMcC would buy into hiring a raw rookie GM.  How well did that work out?  Fox was only the 2nd worst HC we've ever had and now the natives are restless once again and want Pace fired as well.

OK, fine and dandy.  So we fire both Pace and Nagy.  Now whose in charge of yet another search to hire both a new GM and a new HC simultaneously?  Guess it would be that same upper management team who did such a stellar job we got the Emery/Trestman pairing first then the Pace/Fox pairing.  The only one left is Pace but we should fire him so Teddy and GMcC can hire yet another GM/HC pairing?  Boy howdee, and I thought that my thinking was phuc'd up some days.

I realize this whole exercise is all about debate and discussion but we're 8 pages in by now and I'm sitting here wondering at what point it will all come back to planet Earth and we can focus on what's possible and what's not or at least on what's most likely and what's not.  If I could exhume Don Shula and use his corpse to clone another Shula to become GM/HC of the Bears I surely would but since that can't happen either I'd prefer to focus more on what actually could happen. 

Does that make sense?

[soulman]

51 minutes ago, AZBearsFan said:

Pace botched the Robinson contract situation… but he also landed him as a FA. 

I wanna hone in on this one issue and Pace.  Let's start with some facts.

Pace did approach ARob on an extension before tagging him.  We're paying him $18 mil this year so Pace certainly though he was valuable enough to us to pay him that much guaranteed for a single year.  From there we don't know exactly what happened but any talks of an extension apparently did not resume this summer so we can probably surmise the two parties were still too far apart to find common ground.

We've heard that Pace "lowballed" ARob but how accurate can that be?  He was making $14 mil a year on his last deal and since a tag would run $18 mil it's probably reasonable to think any solid offer had to me more than $14 mil and more likely closer to $18 mil year.  $18 mil would have kept ARob in the top ten and equaled what guys like Hill and Golladay and just under what Michael Thomas got from NOLA.

But we also heard rumors that ARob was seeking the kind of deal Keenan Allen got which as around $20 mil per annum.  Amari Cooper as well.

Even if we had the excess cap to pay it I would not go that high for ARob or at least not until I saw how well he and Fields developed as a combo and there was no way to know that last spring or this summer.  If Pace's top was $18 mil and ARob's bottom was $20 mil there was never gonna be a deal done period.  And even if Fields and ARob explode as a combo over the next 8 games ARob is still not gonna hit his 2019-2020 numbers.

I've begun to accept the probability that ARob will be playing elsewhere in 2021 but he's surely not gonna get the kind of offers he was looking for last spring so there is still a small, maybe even a very small chance he may decide to return for far less money than he initially wanted.  IMHO he's still one of the best possession receivers in the NFL and a guy Fields can go to in clutch situations so I'd at least keep a light on for him.

Edited November 13, 2021 by soulman

[Sugashane]

3 hours ago, AZBearsFan said:

Jenkins is that kind of “I’m gonna kick your *** for 3 hours” attitude guy. Can’t get him in there soon enough IMO. 

Quentin Nelson's equally angry but less talented little brother. Definitely loved his film and would have taken him there even if we had to redshirt him.

[soulman]

Geez, Chamberlain must have been channeling me for the last few days.  If he'd have written this sooner I could have saved time posting.

Eight Games to Decision Day

Originally posted on FanNation Bear Digest
By Gene Chamberlain  |  Last updated 11/12/21

https://www.yardbarker.com/nfl/articles/eight_games_to_decision_day/s1_16634_36420293?utm_source=mb&utm_medium=email&mb_edition=20211113&mb_loc=right_h

 

The Bears organization faces a conundrum and it has nothing to do with still being named the Chicago Bears when they move to Arlington Heights.

The difficult situation revolves around the futures of coach Matt Nagy, GM Ryan Pace and the real decision makers within the walls of Halas Hall,  team CEO Ted Phillips and board chairman George McCaskey.

With the team at 3-6 and buried under their third long losing streak in three years, the possibility of some type of change looms at season's end.

Of course, the Bears could always do a complete reversal, win their remaining eight games and cruise into the playoffs. There would be no tough decisions then.

Considering the last time this happened was when they won the Lombardi Trophy, it's not very likely.

McCaskey called "progress" the goal for the season, while Phillips said they needed to win a playoff game. McCaskey gets the award for realistic thinking here.

So what constitutes progress is the real question to be answered behind closed doors. Is it merely winning nine instead of eight, like they did in 2019 and 2020? That would mean taking six of the last eight.

It could also be a term for the team's playing level.

Do they reach some sort of momentum going into the offseason? They're no longer last in offense. They're at a healthy 31st, although they still rank last in passing. But the second half of the Pittsburgh game gave rise to optimism that things could change in the way their offense functions over the season's final eight games.

Here is the conundrum ahead for the Bears when a decision is due on coach and GM.

Firing Matt Nagy, not Ryan Pace

Would the same GM get to hire a third head coach after the team made the playoffs two times in his seven seasons, with one division title and no playoff wins? With that record, does he deserve to be retained?

While Nagy must take blame for the offense's failure and the way they kept Justin Fields out of the No. 1 quarterback spot initially, he is also responsible for at least part of one very important success people lay on Pace.

Nagy and Pace together collaborated on the draft the past few years. Before they began collaborating on players so closely, Pace really didn't have the greatest draft record, unless you consider Kevin White's career a success because of his one 38-yard reception for New Orleans. He was a bust. Injury only initially stopped him. He couldn't play the game, and it showed by what happened after his injuries healed. He never developed anywhere.

Pace bombed out on drafting Mitchell Trubisky, who probably would have been a decent choice as a second-round quarterback but not the No. 2 pick overall. Adam Shaheen, Hroniss Grasu, Riley Ridley, Anthony Miller and Jonathan Bullard are some other flops. Pernell McPhee, Mike Glennon, Dion Sims, Markus Wheaton, Jerrell Freeman, Eddie Royal, Antrel Rolle, Ray McDonald, Cody Parkey and Trey Burton all are examples of Pace being no more successful in free agency at times in than the draft.

However, he has had successes both ways, too, and the biggest one has to be engineering the trade to draft Justin Fields.

Even there, Nagy was a driving force in identifying Fields as a real talent worth trading up to get. He also was one of those in Kansas City who was a real proponent for trading up to draft Patrick Mahomes.

Because of Pace's success while collaborating with Nagy on the draft, it's almost as if Nagy has as much value as a personnel guy as the coach.

So if they decide to part ways with Nagy, you're left with only half the personnel force that brought Fields to Chicago. The delicate balance of collaboration could be altered.

They're also leaving it up to Pace to be able to bring in another head coach when they would have already decided the decision he made on Nagy was poor by firing him. 

So the logic here makes your head spin.

Fire Pace, keep Nagy

The worst thing Pace has done recently is his part in signing Andy Dalton.

Well, drafting an injured Teven Jenkins wasn't too swift, and putting them in cap shape so they had to cut Kyle Fuller wasn't exactly a daft move, either.

There was nothing wrong with bringing in Dalton per se.  But the problem was bringing in Dalton and telling him he was going to be the starting quarterback. It's unclear if this was a Nagy or Pace creation, but Nagy is in charge of on-field decisions so it would be easy to see how he made this one.

However, Pace was in Chicago when they tried to do the same thing with Glennon and Trubisky. It was an unnecessary waste of money and effort then just like it was this year with Dalton and Fields. So this one has the Pace stamp on it as well.

Regardless, there seems to be no logical way now for the Bears to fire Pace and keep Nagy after many of Pace's recent moves have panned out—including the Fields and Khalil Mack trade. 

The big problem currently is the not-so-minor issue of losing. If Nagy had them winning, there would be no reason to fire either of them.

Then there is the Nagy impact on Fields. Would they want a coach developing Fields who can't get an offense out of the bottom of the league? They've been in the vicinity of the bottom for three years.

Double Firing

The alternative of firing both Nagy and Pace will have its share of supporters, especially if Fields doesn't progress and they keep losing games.   

Starting over with both positions means a complete rebuild. This forces any franchise back at least a year to a year and a half with reorganizing and fitting talent to suit the new coach's needs.

Beyond that, it creates what could be the worst scenario of all. 

It leaves Phillips and McCaskey in charge of replacing the GM so that a new coach can then be hired by the GM. There is a real fear factor involved in this one.

These were the people who decided it was OK to hire Phil Emery as GM, to let him fire Lovie Smith as head coach after a 10-6 season, to hire Marc Trestman instead of Bruce Arians and then to hire the current GM and hire John Fox.

What have they ever done to indicate they could possibly get a decision of this magnitude correct?

Could Last Option Be Best?

They could keep Nagy and Pace, and give each another year to prove themselves. 

This is essentially what they did last year, except without the extra year officially added to contracts, as far as we know. They wouldn't talk about contract lengths during their postseason press conference. They punted after last season. And if they punt again it could work, but they would probably absorb a public relations beating.

Still, it's easier to accept such punishment when a buffer like Fields is providing cushion. Fans tend to be less abusive when they have hope. Fields provides it.

Barring a complete collapse to 6-11 or 5-12, or the offense remaining totally stagnant despite Fields' presence, keeping both Pace and Nagy for at least another year might be the only option to avoid a real disaster.

This would be the potential disaster when Phillips and McCaskey are out beating the bushes for their new GM, or Pace is doing the same for his third coach.

And even with a budding young quarterback, everyone goes through the same old monotonous circle of failure until the next firings and then Phillips and McCaskey get involved again and again.

It's eight games until decision time and a player wearing No. 1 can go a long way toward preventing any such move with some victories.

Twitter: BearDigest@onFanNation

 

Lemme just say that by "punting" after last year to both save $$$ and even more embarrassment Teddy Bears and GMcC have set themselves up for a similar scenario after this season.  While Chamberlain presents that last option as he should  I can't even imagine how badly that would make ol' Teddy and GMcC look in the eyes of Bears fans to give Nagy and his consistently bottom ranked offense another shot with Fields.  It's like giving your 16 year old juvenile delinquent son the keys to your new Porsche the week after he total your two month old Corvette  3LT.

And if they decide on the Double Firing option and choose to once again go it alone in choosing a new GM and HC I  may actually decide to disown those two Mother******* entirely and become a Packer Fan.  There is nothing, and I do mean absolutely nothing in their combined history that tells me they could ever be trusted with that task again.  The only side benefit may be many years of top five draft picks.

So what's left?

Whether we like it or not keeping Pace around at least for 2022 giving him another shot at hiring a HC seems to be the lesser of all of the other evils.  It took him two shots to get the right QB so maybe he's on a roll now and can actually hire the right HC for Fields and we can finally put an NFL worthy offense on the field.  Is it what many of us want?  No.  But is it the best choice out of those available?  Probably.

[AZBearsFan]

For context. SF hasn’t won under Lynch/Shanahan, but many believe they have one of the more talented rosters in the league.

Again, I am NOT pushing to keep Pace, but his record isn’t as atypical as you might think. Even at that though, you can only let someone swing and miss so many times.

Having Pace as your GM is like having Jason Hayward as your RF. Some stuff he does REALLY well (for Pace that’s evaluating DL and RB), but there are enough deficiencies in key areas that keep coming up that while you can live with him you are always left wanting more.