Staff Overhaul for 2022 - Discuss, debate, deliberate..... uh, d-speculate...

[soulman]

2 hours ago, AZBearsFan said:

You’re so worried about who to blame when things go wrong. Think about it from the other side. The idea would be that you have a football guy hiring the GM who is then empowered with making all the roster decisions rather than an unqualified accountant and an unqualified football family heir making that hire. It would add another layer between those who run the football team and those who run the franchise. This is something anyone who dislikes Ted Phillips’ involvement has wanted for 20 years already. From an organizational structure standpoint it makes far more sense than the status quo. The less involved the McCaskeys and Ted Phillips are with what happens with the football operation the better.

Can't come up with a better answer for those of you who are worried about Pace having even more power or control and a proper separation of those powers and controls from others in management roles.  As I outlined in my previous post there are all kinds of ways to manage those issues.

And while a promotion may seem to bestow more authority it's often does just the opposite or at the very least it may redirect authority to different functions within the organization.  If you take the time to review all of the people the Bears employ in many different positions with very diverse responsibilities you may get a better idea of just how vast the Bears organization is and how much work is involved with overseeing all of that.

https://www.chicagobears.com/team/front-office/

How much of that does Pace oversee now as GM?  How much could be carved from the GM role if Pace become the VP of Football Ops leaving roster building and player personnel decisions to a new GM, HC, and the Director of Player Personnel?  It seems to me that there's more than enough work load and responsibilities to spread around allowing management/executive level personnel to become more focused on those tasks directly designated to them and under their full authority.

The bottom line is that we may finally getting to that long sought after point of replacing non-football people with career football people who actually have more know how as far as building a winning organization top to bottom.  I've worked with a whole lot of people who were not the best technical people or line workers but who became some of the best managers once given that role.  So let's not allow Pace's work as GM to cloud our thinking about how he may function in a role where his thinking can replace much of Ted Phillips and GMcC type thinking and authority.

Edited November 8, 2021 by soulman

[abstract_thought]

[soulman]

1 hour ago, abstract_thought said:

Not entirely no, but as long as he focuses on the stadium and development of the Arlington property he'll be far enough away from football stuff.

My putting this forward has less to do with what I think than what the McCaskey Family might be thinking.  I don't run the Bears, they do.  So from time to time it pays to at least try to view the team and peoples roles in it from their perspective or what may be one of their perspectives.

[AZBearsFan]

13 hours ago, abstract_thought said:

If you promote Pace, you're not really changing anything. You're giving him even more control. And what prospective GM is going to want to work in that situation? Would you want to come into a building where you report to another football guy who has an existing relationship with ownership? Do we want another Bruce Allen situation?

It's fine to hire a football guy as the team's President. But use that as a carrot to make the job more attractive to outsiders who might actually change things. Promoting Pace will only create more dysfunction. He's already failed. The Bears need to stop rewarding failure.

Not every team operates like Gar/Pax did. A lot of teams have a football guy who hires and evaluates the GM but let’s the GM do his job without meddling. From a structure standpoint it’s no different than firing Pace and then hiring an outside Pres/VP of Football Ops to fill that role who then hires his GM. I want a football guy choosing a GM, not Phillips or McCaskey. But I also want that GM to be given complete autonomy to do his job. Ozzie Newsome is the Executive VP in Baltimore and Eric DeCosta is GM, but it’s DeCosta’s show on personnel. Newsome evaluates whether DeCosta is doing his job well, but he allows him to do it. That’s what I’m envisioning for the Bears, whether that’s Pace as EVP or someone else. As long as they’re giving the GM they hire autonomy to do their job it’s less relevant who that EVP is so long as he’s someone who comes from a football background. 

[abstract_thought]

7 hours ago, AZBearsFan said:

A lot of teams have a football guy who hires and evaluates the GM but let’s the GM do his job without meddling.

A football guy recommended Pace and Fox. And since those hires, what evidence do we have that Pace's decisions are not 100% his own?

7 hours ago, AZBearsFan said:

Ozzie Newsome is the Executive VP in Baltimore and Eric DeCosta is GM, but it’s DeCosta’s show on personnel. Newsome evaluates whether DeCosta is doing his job well, but he allows him to do it.

Ozzie Newsome was a successful GM who worked for the Ravens for 22 years before he stepped down. Ryan Pace has not been a success with the Bears. And he's certainly not shown a knack for hiring talented football people. Not only that, but when the time has come for Pace to hold his own hires accountable, he's failed to do so. The Bears under Pace have been extremely hesitant to move on from not only Nagy, but also failed draftees.

In short, there's absolutely no reason to think he'd be good at hiring and managing a GM.

7 hours ago, AZBearsFan said:

That’s what I’m envisioning for the Bears, whether that’s Pace as EVP or someone else. As long as they’re giving the GM they hire autonomy to do their job it’s less relevant who that EVP is so long as he’s someone who comes from a football background. 

I can agree that football ops should have autonomy. But that's a separate issue from keeping Pace. If McCaskey wants to be involved in football decisions, he's going to be involved. It doesn't matter if the EVP is Ryan Pace or someone else.

[topwop1]

21 hours ago, abstract_thought said:

Nope but people need to accept the reality that Ted Phillips is likely not going anywhere because now he looks to be very much involved in the new stadium project.  This actually might be a good thing though, because as rumors have it, Bears might look to promote someone, maybe Pace, to a new position of VP of Football Ops, who will then hire a new GM and HC.

Whether that VP is Pace or someone else, I think this is the best we can hope for in the short term.  Like AZ and Soulman have pointed out, I think this would be much better alternative than the continual status quo of letting George & Ted do another GM/HC search every few years.

Again, Pace has his faults but which GM in the league doesn't?  Be careful what you wish for because it could always be way worse.

There's no question though that the coaching staff needs a complete overhaul.

[dll2000]

Ted Phillips is going nowhere IMO.   The McCaskey family likes and trusts him, loves him even.  He is practically one of family at this point.   I see no scenario where he doesn't retire when he chooses.  

Failing up (promoting Pace) is a stupid strategy to me.  Idea is to get someone incompetent out of way like an owner's kid, but it never works as they always meddle.    

However, Pace may very well stay on as GM because McCaskey wants Bears run more like Steelers and Steelers have stability and because they like the way Pace runs the building and interacts with them.   They like him a lot personally.

Nagy is as good as gone I think.   I don't think it will help if Nagy leaves and Pace stays because Pace was part of a lot of bad decisions that Nagy made.   

I think Pace had a find draft last year, but he doesn't understand good coaching practices or best practices for player development.  Worse he interferes with coaching decisions on it.  

My hope is both Nagy and Pace go and we hire a good coach and a good GM to go with him.   I am not at all confident any of that happens other than Nagy likely leaving.

 

 

 

[BEAR FACE DOWN ARROW]

If I was betting, I would say Nagy is gone, Pace and Phillips stay.  The Bears have the feel of a company that is behind the times and scared of change, so they really like the people they're comfortable with below ownership as they insulate them from having to learn new methods or make tough calls.  You can grade out Pace all you want, but George seems to like him, so if he wants to find reasons to keep him (excuses for Nagy, Covid, and most of all the Fields lucky pick) he can.  

Remains to be seen how much of an advantage it will be, but it seems like the early start to interviewing candidates means that anyone firing their HC should do it around week 15.  

[dll2000]

On 11/8/2021 at 10:34 AM, topwop1 said:

I'm all for hiring a new GM/coach combo but we have to understand something when it comes to overhauling an entire front office, it's a lot of work and not something that is typically done in one offseason.  This has always been the case not just with the new Bears GM hires, but also with other front offices around the league.

For example when Emery and Pace both took over as GM's, the majority of the scouting staffs from the previous regimes were retained.  It's just not realistic to expect to overhaul an entire scouting department in one offseason, also when considering the amount of work those scouts do during the college FB season leading up to the offseason/draft. 

I think Champ Kelly is deserving of a shot to be a GM whether that's in Chicago or elsewhere, and I'm just saying if Pace is retained in some capacity, then it certainly makes a lot of sense to make that move.

I believe a lot of worthy coaches in this league would jump at the chance to work with Kelly and coach a storied franchise such as the Bears who now have an exciting young talent at QB.

Just remember, the grass isn't always going to be greener with these assistant front office guys you hear about from other organizations. 

Why is it so hard to switch a GM and his scouts that it would take multiple offseasons?  Only if they signed contracts teams don’t want to buy out.

Is it really that much work in digital age?  Guys are doing it from their basements now by themselves with a computer and a net connection.

What scouts are essentially doing is compiling lists for GM and coaches so they don’t have to watch every player in college football.  

It’s only 3 or 4 guys in a front office that matter.  Everyone else is a data compiler.

If you think about it you could achieve same thing by simply asking a college HC who his 5 best draft eligible guys are.  More if it is a powerhouse school. 

Scouts can pound the table for a guy in background, but it’s the coaches and GMs that are going to watch the tape themselves and compile their boards in Spring.  All a scout can do is beg them to watch a tape of some unknown dude who is a likely a practice squad guy at best in any event.  

What is much more valuable in my mind would be private investigators and predictive personality experts.   What are indicators that a guy will have traits to stay out of trouble and be diligent in his craft and coachable?

Biggest difference between a joe blow simply using a computer is you don’t get inside info on a guy or medical info.  But any NFL GM can get that info by simply calling and asking for it from college coaches off record.  Medical info comes at combine and everyone in NFL gets it
 

 

[topwop1]

3 hours ago, dll2000 said:

Why is it so hard to switch a GM and his scouts that it would take multiple offseasons?  Only if they signed contracts teams don’t want to buy out.

Is it really that much work in digital age?  Guys are doing it from their basements now by themselves with a computer and a net connection.

What scouts are essentially doing is compiling lists for GM and coaches so they don’t have to watch every player in college football.  

It’s only 3 or 4 guys in a front office that matter.  Everyone else is a data compiler.

If you think about it you could achieve same thing by simply asking a college HC who his 5 best draft eligible guys are.  More if it is a powerhouse school. 

Scouts can pound the table for a guy in background, but it’s the coaches and GMs that are going to watch the tape themselves and compile their boards in Spring.  All a scout can do is beg them to watch a tape of some unknown dude who is a likely a practice squad guy at best in any event.  

What is much more valuable in my mind would be private investigators and predictive personality experts.   What are indicators that a guy will have traits to stay out of trouble and be diligent in his craft and coachable?

Biggest difference between a joe blow simply using a computer is you don’t get inside info on a guy or medical info.  But any NFL GM can get that info by simply calling and asking for it from college coaches off record.  Medical info comes at combine and everyone in NFL gets it
 

 

Short answer is because different regimes have different draft grading systems for scouting players, and team scouts use that specific grading system starting from the previous offseason leading up to the next draft.

It's a lot of work to make a change like that in 3-4 months starting from January leading up to the draft in late April/early May.

For example, I'm pretty sure I remember hearing that when Phil Emery was hired as GM that he was changing the Bears scouting system previously under Jerry Angelo to the Patriots style system that Belichick uses, as Emery learned this in Atlanta under Pioli, however it was mentioned that for his first draft with the team that he would have to use the previous grading system that scouts worked on under Angelo just due to the timing.

Not saying that this reason alone means Pace won't be fired, just saying it may be a more of a reason as to why they may choose to promote from within and hire a guy like Champ Kelly as GM, especially if Pace is retained in some capacity.

Edited November 10, 2021 by topwop1

[soulman]

On 11/8/2021 at 11:13 PM, AZBearsFan said:

Ozzie Newsome is the Executive VP in Baltimore and Eric DeCosta is GM, but it’s DeCosta’s show on personnel. Newsome evaluates whether DeCosta is doing his job well, but he allows him to do it. That’s what I’m envisioning for the Bears, whether that’s Pace as EVP or someone else. As long as they’re giving the GM they hire autonomy to do their job it’s less relevant who that EVP is so long as he’s someone who comes from a football background. 

Agreed.  If only it was Newsome and DeCosta.....ah well, we'll just have to create our own.

[soulman]

On 11/9/2021 at 7:39 AM, abstract_thought said:

In short, there's absolutely no reason to think he'd be good at hiring and managing a GM.

OK, fair enough.  But then you have to first hire and Exec VP of Football Ops.  Then he has to interview and hire a GM.  Then that new GM will still need to interview and hire a new HC and staff.  How long do you think all of that might take?

Unless GMcC actually plans on hiring an Exec VP and has his guy already picked out by now ready to take over on Black Monday it could be the end of February before all of that gets done since the playoffs and SB will also interfere with the process.

[abstract_thought]

3 hours ago, soulman said:

OK, fair enough.  But then you have to first hire and Exec VP of Football Ops.  Then he has to interview and hire a GM.  Then that new GM will still need to interview and hire a new HC and staff.  How long do you think all of that might take?

Lions did it last offseason. Bulls did it in 2020. And they have even more complications than the Bears given their ownership model.

[soulman]

12 hours ago, abstract_thought said:

Lions did it last offseason. Bulls did it in 2020. And they have even more complications than the Bears given their ownership model.

I'm not interested in what other teams may have done.  This is the McCaskey owned Bears we're talking about so our wisest approach is to at least try to think along lines similar to those the McCaskey's have traveled in the past.

I'm not trying to be a jerk I'm just saying let's keep to what may be possible knowing who we're dealing with.  Anyone else contemplating a HC change might well have fired Matt Nagy by now and begun the process in earnest. 

Nagy still has his job because that's the way the Bears are run.  The McCaskey's are slow footed and methodical to a fault so I'm simply trying to see things from their point of view and deal with their fears and eccentricities.

If they tend to be even somewhat averse to firing a HC during the season and dislike the hiring process altogether they will avoid it until they have a GM who will head up that search.  If the plan to replace Pace then that means they have to search for a new GM or hire a VP of Football Ops to conduct a search and hire a GM who along with the VP will hire a HC and coaching staff.

That's a pretty complex process for the McCaskeys and Ted Phillips to conduct.  That's my point.

[BEAR FACE DOWN ARROW]

More inclined to think your way Soul,  but perhaps they're just hedging a bit until the season is truly toast and will move Nagy out the door then?  Either way it's really interesting to see how much the end of season window for interviewing new HC for teams without one affects things.  Perhaps it's always happened anyway, but quietly, or perhaps it leads to teams like the Bears firing in season for the first time.