Former NFL player Phillip Adams found to have severe CTE / Discussion on CTE and the future of the NFL

[incognito_man]

25 minutes ago, Matts4313 said:

And your not? Explain then

I...am...too

I am among everyone else here who is ignorant about it. None of us are CTE experts. That's the point.

[JAF-N72EX]

1 minute ago, Matts4313 said:

For real. CTE is the only football topic in this thread and thats all weve been talking about. 

He's not a good player sitting on free agency and so we can't discus that. He doesn't play for a current team so we can't discuss the loss from said team. Football related CTE is really the only discussion to be had here.

It's a hard one to have on this forum though because it can quickly turn into more medical related than football. See the COVID threads.

[incognito_man]

There is a LOT to discuss here. Eventually this is going to impact the NFL in a BIG way. When will that be? And how will it look?

Probably the biggest question about "Football's Future".

[incognito_man]

I could change the thread to something more general like "In what year will professional football end and why?" and this would probably be the most popular choice as to "why".

[JAF-N72EX]

1 minute ago, incognito_man said:

There is a LOT to discuss here. Eventually this is going to impact the NFL in a BIG way. When will that be? And how will it look?

I agree 100% here. It is def a topic that needs to be discussed more. However......

2 minutes ago, incognito_man said:

Probably the biggest question about "Football's Future".

.....this forum has trouble staying on topics related to football about a current NFL player and a 2 week covid test and any other nonsense. So where do you think this thread will end up while discussing a former NFL player who committed serious acts of insanity?

[Webmaster]

We can keep this open if members stay on topic, stick to CTE discussion and the potential impact on the NFL.  For example, new safety measures, more concussion protocols,  the end of tackle football etc.   This will be locked if it turns into a discussion on crime and punishment, personal experiences, unqualified medical opinion, etc.

[iknowcool]

4 hours ago, incognito_man said:

The gladiator reign lasted for nearly 1,000 years in Rome - how much longer does the NFL have do we think?

Just want to say, I am merely playing devil's advocate.  I really don't know enough about the subject to take a side.

However, is there any strong evidence that former NFL players are that much more likely to commit violent crimes than the average person?  From my perspective, and I could be wrong and talking strictly from a place of ignorance, this seems like a mostly isolated incident.  I'm not denying CTE and the issues that it can lead to, but we're talking about one player out of thousands and thousands of former NFL players.  I think it is possible CTE could have contributed to this incident, but it also seems like an assumption to suggest it was the driving factor.  Adams was only 32 years old.  Does CTE cause issues to this extent and this soon in a player's lifespan, or could he have simply had other undiagnosed mental health issues (I am not suggesting one way or the other)?  What led to his behavior deviating from the tons of ex-former NFL players who may also suffer from CTE?  I understand that not everyone responds to medical issues the same, but I do find it curious that so many other players (at least in the public eye) seem able to lead fairly normal lives even though they likely suffered numerous head blows.  Again though, I fully accept I could be talking from a place of ignorance.

I just think there are too many questions to be answered for one to really take a side in the conversation, although it is definitely a conversation worth having.  Personally, I can't see the NFL/American Football ending anytime soon unless there is another major discovery relating to CTE and/or we see incidents like this becoming more prevalent among former players.  As of now, this seems closer to an isolated incident more than anything else.  Something that had contributing factors other than CTE.

Edited December 15, 2021 by iknowcool

[paul-mac]

Interesting that this topic was an incredibly hot one 7-8 years ago around the time of Chris Borland’s retirement and the unfortunate passing of Junior Seau but seems to have dried up a lot now.

 

 

The corollary to that is that many feel the moves the NFL has put into the game in recent years have genuinely made it safer.

 

Sadly these moves came too early for Adams.

[JAF-N72EX]

50 minutes ago, iknowcool said:

is there any strong evidence that former NFL players are that much more likely to commit violent crimes than the average person?

50 minutes ago, iknowcool said:

I'm not denying CTE and the issues that it can lead to

This is the crux of the argument tho. Especially for those people like yourself who, I'm assuming, never had multiple severe head injuries versus someone like myself who has.

They are still learning about CTE and the effects it can have on a person. See Chris Benoit for example. Don't judge a book by it's cover.

50 minutes ago, iknowcool said:

I understand that not everyone responds to medical issues the same, but I do find it curious that so many other players (at least in the public eye) seem able to lead fairly normal lives even though they likely suffered numerous head blows.

It's not that simple. I had SEVERAL head injuries myself in my early years and I live a "normal" life too. I have a wife and 2 kids and I run a business. I feel normal most of the time. But don't think for one second that I don't still feel the effects of those blows taking a toll years later.

Don't judge a book by it's cover (I'll keep saying this because I personally know the effects)

I'd love to get more in depth here, but like I said I'll wait until we get the okay to discuss this certain topic further. If you need a good example of what I'm talking about from my perspective then refer to this thread here about ANOTHER person (NFL player) who may be possibly suffering from the same effects.

 

Edited December 15, 2021 by JAF-N72EX

[JAF-N72EX]

People who have never had severe head damage seem to severely underestimate the underlying effects. It's crazy to me.

Edited December 15, 2021 by JAF-N72EX

[JAF-N72EX]

2 hours ago, JAF-N72EX said:

@ET80 Is it okay to discuss what further procedures the NFL could take to prevent CTE? (although I know this would get derailed quickly too). I'm asking because that's the direction I was going to try to steer this conversation towards, because to be honest I don't think there's anything else that can be said here related to football.

Damn. Reading back, I just realized that even I went against everything I was initially aiming for here to keep it to football and changed the topic myself lol. My apologies.

[Jakuvious]

1 hour ago, iknowcool said:

Just want to say, I am merely playing devil's advocate.  I really don't know enough about the subject to take a side.

However, is there any strong evidence that former NFL players are that much more likely to commit violent crimes than the average person?  From my perspective, and I could be wrong and talking strictly from a place of ignorance, this seems like a mostly isolated incident.  I'm not denying CTE and the issues that it can lead to, but we're talking about one player out of thousands and thousands of former NFL players.  I think it is possible CTE could have contributed to this incident, but it also seems like an assumption to suggest it was the driving factor.  Adams was only 32 years old.  Does CTE cause issues to this extent and this soon in a player's lifespan, or could he have simply had other undiagnosed mental health issues (I am not suggesting one way or the other)?  What led to his behavior deviating from the tons of ex-former NFL players who may also suffer from CTE?  I understand that not everyone responds to medical issues the same, but I do find it curious that so many other players (at least in the public eye) seem able to lead fairly normal lives even though they likely suffered numerous head blows.  Again though, I fully accept I could be talking from a place of ignorance.

I just think there are too many questions to be answered for one to really take a side in the conversation, although it is definitely a conversation worth having.  Personally, I can't see the NFL/American Football ending anytime soon unless there is another major discovery relating to CTE and/or we see incidents like this becoming more prevalent among former players.  As of now, this seems closer to an isolated incident more than anything else.  Something that had contributing factors other than CTE.

I'll have to see if I can dig up some sources, but statistically, NFL players, both current and former, are less likely to commit basically any kind of crime than the general population. It can vary a little bit by crime, and depending on what sample was used, but over meaningful periods of time, NFL players are basically always less likely to commit crimes than an average American citizen within the same demographics. So like, if you did a study of just 2012 NFL players, it'd seem like the NFL has a ridiculous rate of murder charges, because Aaron Hernandez alone gives you a homicide rate of 1 in 1696 (roughly), which is astronomically high, but that's a sample size and timing issue, as most years it would just be 0. Larger sample sizes always favor the NFL in the end. With the possible exception of domestic violence. Domestic violence is the one type of crime that typically does stand out as far as NFL versus the general population. It still occurs at a lower rate in the NFL for that age group than the overall US, but if you factor in income it's pretty bad. Domestic violence rates tend to plummet in higher income brackets, but not as much in the NFL. You don't normally get many people in the top 1% of annual income getting arrested for DV, but it certainly happens in the NFL. Of course, the difficulty is linking that to anything. Coincidence, CTE, the fact that these guys are all way larger and stronger than the average dude, etc. It's the kind of think I'm not sure it's physically possible to link directly.

It always winds up getting perceived as higher just because of how high profile the crimes are, in a relative sense. We have no real reason to have an accurate perception of how often people are arrested for varying crimes, so when you get like 3 guys in the NFL in one offseason, it might seem astronomically high, but actually be way lower than the general population. It's hard to say without looking for the data, and most people aren't going to do that.

Couple of sources:

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-nfl-arrests-study/arrests-in-u-s-general-population-higher-than-for-nfl-players-study-idUSKCN0QU2EL20150825

https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/the-rate-of-domestic-violence-arrests-among-nfl-players/

[LoFi]

4 hours ago, Matts4313 said:

A lot. Because the NFL is taking all the crazy hard hits out of the game. You can still get it, obviously, but gladiators were at such a significantly higher risk that this entire statement is silly.

The hard hits aren't the problem with CTE. It is the repeated small hits that players take to the head that will really bring on the CTE. Even soccer has high rates of CTE, believe it or not. 

 

[Jakuvious]

I will say, I see basically no chance this ends the NFL anytime soon. We're 20 years from the discovery of CTE. We're 10 years from Junior Seau's death making it a huge topic. It was 6 or 7 years ago that we saw a slew of retirements from players concerned about this (IIRC, Chris Borland, Husain Abdullah, Eugene Monroe, Anthony Davis, and probably a few others all retired within like a year of each other citing concussion/CTE concerns.) It will continue to hit the news cycle periodically, the NFL will continue to make rule changes to try to improve the optics, but people will continue watching (and complaining about said rule changes), players will continue pursuing the dream of playing in the NFL for the money it offers, and the money printer will continue printing. The reality is that people, at this point, know the game is dangerous. We may still not know exactly how or to what extent, but the vast majority of players playing today, and fans watching, know that the game is dangerous to the players. But they don't care enough for the sport to die. The NFL isn't going to shut itself down. There's no way you get enough politicians in favor of shutting it down, given how it will just upset such a large portion of any of their bases. So, when the fans still want to watch, and the players still want to play, and the league still wants to make money, who is going to shut it down?

Maybe some day it reaches the point where it legitimately becomes flag football, or they remove helmets, or they find some other creative way to remove the biggest risks. But it'll never be 100% safe, no matter what they do. And as much as that kind of sucks, I'm okay with it. I think you do everything you can to inform everyone signing up for this. You do what you can to make it safer. But I think on some level, informed, consenting adults have to be allowed to make decisions like this for themselves. The bigger controversy for CTE for me was when there was that window the NFL seemed to know about it, but the players had no idea. But if the players know the long term risks, and make an informed choice that those risks are worth it, for the money or security or whatever, I'm honestly fine with that. Most careers are going to involve some kind of balance of trade offs, whether it's money, time, health, whatever, and I think people should be able to choose. Because I don't like the thought of removing the opportunity from the couple thousand NFL players either. I dunno. Maybe I'll change my mind as more info comes out.

[WheatieMan]

This guys played in the early 2010s. Still in the early innings of CTE, but relatively recently. This was not 80-90’s era football. So you have to wonder. If another case happens for a player playing in this decade, then all bets are off. The rule changes have not worked. After all, players get a little bit stronger and faster each passing year and you just can’t prevent the brain from sloshing a bit at those speeds.

This looks really bad for optics. NFL.com didn’t even mention it and it was barely front page news on ESPN. Not a prominent player but nonetheless. Hell, I didn’t even know the guy played in the NFL until yesterday. Thought he was college and semi pro. It’s been brushed under the rug.

Time will tell, but I’m convinced we are going to flag football in several decades if we keep getting data points like this. This is the worst case so far since the murder suicide of the Chiefs player when I think Romeo Crennel coached the team.

Edited December 15, 2021 by WheatieMan