BStanRamFan Posted March 23, 2022 Share Posted March 23, 2022 12 hours ago, Teen Girl Squad said: Makes the Woods trade make sense and addresses a pretty big weakness. McGinnis is apparently pretty accurate about these things so it'll be interesting to see if to comes to fruition. Les Snead commented yesterday that they have been viewing tape internally on if he will be a scheme fit. They LOVE Earnest Jones our 2nd round pick last year who played well the end of the season when he came back from injury, but if you can get Wagner, you do. Stafford's cap hit in the next two seasons is piddly so this is our window to make these moves. If we sign Wagner, I'd love to see an immediate pivot to Stephon Gilmore to pair with Ramsey. It all seems impossible, but as we've seen...the cap isn't real. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NYRaider Posted March 23, 2022 Share Posted March 23, 2022 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CP3MVP Posted March 23, 2022 Share Posted March 23, 2022 Lol At what point do you accept a QB for who is and stop talking about what he could be? Carson wentz and Jameis winston are still being hyped by their “upside” and “potential” and these dudes are 28 and 29 years old. We are doing the same thing with baker, he’s gonna be 27 years old opening day if he gets a starting spot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jrry32 Posted March 23, 2022 Share Posted March 23, 2022 12 hours ago, Teen Girl Squad said: Makes the Woods trade make sense and addresses a pretty big weakness. McGinnis is apparently pretty accurate about these things so it'll be interesting to see if to comes to fruition. I hope this is true. 2 minutes ago, CP3MVP said: Lol At what point do you accept a QB for who is and stop talking about what he could be? Carson wentz and Jameis winston are still being hyped by their “upside” and “potential” and these dudes are 28 and 29 years old. We are doing the same thing with baker, he’s gonna be 27 years old opening day if he gets a starting spot. Pocket passers don't typically enter their prime until 27-30 years old. So purportedly accepting a pocket passer for who he is before that window might result in you looking very foolish. If you want an easy example, look no further than the QB who won the Super Bowl this year. Outside of one great year, he was very mediocre before his age-27 season. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CP3MVP Posted March 23, 2022 Share Posted March 23, 2022 (edited) 46 minutes ago, jrry32 said: I hope this is true. Pocket passers don't typically enter their prime until 27-30 years old. So purportedly accepting a pocket passer for who he is before that window might result in you looking very foolish. If you want an easy example, look no further than the QB who won the Super Bowl this year. Outside of one great year, he was very mediocre before his age-27 season. The vast majority of star QBs are Superstars before they hit 28 years old. Specifically in 2022 where they are throwing more in HS and college than they ever had prior to entering the nfl. If I have a 70 or game sample size of you being average, you’re probably average. Ill take my chances that the guy who has been mediocre isn’t going to magically transform into An all pro. So Many gms and coaches get fired because of “upside” Edited March 23, 2022 by CP3MVP 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jrry32 Posted March 23, 2022 Share Posted March 23, 2022 7 minutes ago, CP3MVP said: The vast majority of star QBs are Superstars before they hit 28 years old. Specifically in 2022 where they are throwing more in HS and college than they ever had prior to entering the nfl. If I have a 70 or game sample size of you being average, you’re probably average. Ill take my chances that the guy who has been mediocre isn’t going to magically transform into An all pro. So Many gms and coaches get fired because of “upside” Pocket passers are generally inconsistent prior to that prime window. I've given a long list of examples numerous times in the past. Baker had a great year for a rookie QB and then had a good third year. He hasn't been purely mediocre. He has been inconsistent, which isn't out of the ordinary for young pocket passers. Regardless, the sort of teams that should trade for him are squads that don't even have mediocre QBs. It would be dumb for them to not take the risk, especially if he's not going to cost more than a third round pick. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CP3MVP Posted March 23, 2022 Share Posted March 23, 2022 (edited) 9 minutes ago, jrry32 said: Pocket passers are generally inconsistent prior to that prime window. I've given a long list of examples numerous times in the past. Baker had a great year for a rookie QB and then had a good third year. He hasn't been purely mediocre. He has been inconsistent, which isn't out of the ordinary for young pocket passers. Regardless, the sort of teams that should trade for him are squads that don't even have mediocre QBs. It would be dumb for them to not take the risk, especially if he's not going to cost more than a third round pick. He absolutely has been “purely mediocre”. Look at his numbers in his career compared to the other starting QBs the last 4 years. I’d rather bottom out and get a chance at a real franchise QB instead of praying that baker becomes elite on his 4th head coach. Going 6-10 with a mediocre QB with no hope of being a star is the worst spot in the league to be. Edited March 23, 2022 by CP3MVP Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dalan162 Posted March 23, 2022 Share Posted March 23, 2022 2 hours ago, NYRaider said: The fact that they haven't traded him and were also reportedly interested in Watson doesn't bode well for Trey Trey. Fireable offense drafting him in the first place for Lynch Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jrry32 Posted March 23, 2022 Share Posted March 23, 2022 30 minutes ago, CP3MVP said: He absolutely has been “purely mediocre”. Look at his numbers in his career compared to the other starting QBs the last 4 years. I’d rather bottom out and get a chance at a real franchise QB instead of praying that baker becomes elite on his 4th head coach. Going 6-10 with a mediocre QB with no hope of being a star is the worst spot in the league to be. Just last year, Baker helped the Browns to an 11-5 record, led them to a playoff win (including a strong performance by him), and posted an AY/A superior to Justin Herbert, Lamar Jackson, Matt Ryan, Kyler Murray, and Ben Roethlisberger. In short, he was above average in 2020. This idea that every team can have an elite QB is the sort of fallacious logic that leads to teams spending a decade in the crapper. If Baker can be an above average QB, you're in a decent spot. No, you won't have Aaron Rodgers, Tom Brady, or Patrick Mahomes, but bottoming out doesn't guarantee you those guys either. You might just end up drafting a Jameis Winston, Marcus Mariota, Mitch Trubisky, or even a Baker Mayfield. Of course, just because you start Baker doesn't mean you have to stick by him for good. The Chiefs drafted Patrick Mahomes despite Alex Smith being an above average starter. But what Baker can do is give your team enough at the QB position that you're not so desperate you force a bad decision. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CP3MVP Posted March 23, 2022 Share Posted March 23, 2022 (edited) 10 minutes ago, jrry32 said: Just last year, Baker helped the Browns to an 11-5 record, led them to a playoff win (including a strong performance by him), and posted an AY/A superior to Justin Herbert, Lamar Jackson, Matt Ryan, Kyler Murray, and Ben Roethlisberger. In short, he was above average in 2020. This idea that every team can have an elite QB is the sort of fallacious logic that leads to teams spending a decade in the crapper. If Baker can be an above average QB, you're in a decent spot. No, you won't have Aaron Rodgers, Tom Brady, or Patrick Mahomes, but bottoming out doesn't guarantee you those guys either. You might just end up drafting a Jameis Winston, Marcus Mariota, Mitch Trubisky, or even a Baker Mayfield. Of course, just because you start Baker doesn't mean you have to stick by him for good. The Chiefs drafted Patrick Mahomes despite Alex Smith being an above average starter. But what Baker can do is give your team enough at the QB position that you're not so desperate you force a bad decision. Why are you focusing on one year and not his whole career though? I acknowledge He had a nice 11 game run in 2020. Overall when looking at his whole career he’s been a mediocre. He’s about the 18th best QB in the league. The browns didn’t want to settle for average and I respect the hell out of them for that. Every team can’t have an elite QB but you should constantly try. I’m of the belief you keep drafting QBs until you find a great one. Edited March 23, 2022 by CP3MVP Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CP3MVP Posted March 23, 2022 Share Posted March 23, 2022 Even with my own team, I like Mac Jones but we need to have serious conversations about his ceiling. It’s looking like at his peak he might be the 6th best QB in the AFC, are we ok with that? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jrry32 Posted March 23, 2022 Share Posted March 23, 2022 Just now, CP3MVP said: Why are you focusing on one year and not his whole career though? I acknowledge He had a nice 11 game run in 2020. Overall when looking at his whole career he’s been a mediocre. He’s about the 18th best QB in the league. Every team can’t have an elite QB but you should constantly try. I’m of the belief you keep drafting QBs until you find a great one. Because he has only been in the NFL for four years. He had a great year for a rookie. He was bad his second year. He was above average his third year. And then he struggled his fourth year due to injuries. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NYRaider Posted March 23, 2022 Share Posted March 23, 2022 18 minutes ago, jrry32 said: But what Baker can do is give your team enough at the QB position that you're not so desperate you force a bad decision. The Browns just gave up 3 first round picks and handed out a fully guaranteed, $230M contract, for a player that didn't even play last season due to 20+ sexual assault allegations, lol. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soggust Posted March 23, 2022 Share Posted March 23, 2022 1 minute ago, jrry32 said: Because he has only been in the NFL for four years. He had a great year for a rookie. He was bad his second year. He was above average his third year. And then he struggled his fourth year due to injuries. He was above average in one of the most ideal situations (decent oline, coaching, run game) in 2020 by throwing for 220ypg and a 62%. So far in his career, at his ceiling (in a relatively ideal situation), you have a poor man's Ryan Tannehill. It's not necessarily that the floor or ceiling is low with Baker, it's that BOTH are low. You mentioned "if Baker can be above average, you can be in a decent spot", which I agree with, but if Baker is above average, that means you probably have a SB team around him and he's the bottleneck. --- With that being said, I do agree he is a top 32 option so if you aren't planning on intentionally tanking or developing a young QB, there seems to be no reason he shouldn't be a day 1 starter. The problem is, I think teams would rather tank (fans at least) than win an extra 3 games by giving up assets to get Baker instead of whatever they have currently, or a rookie, for example. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jrry32 Posted March 23, 2022 Share Posted March 23, 2022 13 minutes ago, NYRaider said: The Browns just gave up 3 first round picks and handed out a fully guaranteed, $230M contract, for a player that didn't even play last season due to 20+ sexual assault allegations, lol. Because he's 26 years old, is an established top 10 QB, and has shown the potential to be a top 5 QB. I'd have fully supported the Rams giving up the same for Watson before the sexual assault allegations last offseason. Now that he's not being criminally charged, there's not a ton of risk there. 3 minutes ago, Soggust said: He was above average in one of the most ideal situations (decent oline, coaching, run game) in 2020 by throwing for 220ypg and a 62%. One of the most ideal situations? That's a massive overstatement. Yes, the Browns had a great running game and OL. But they also had an underwhelming WR group and an average defense. As for their coaching, Stefanski hasn't proven himself to be in the Kyle Shanahan, Sean McVay, Sean Payton, etc. tier. Baker was in a good situation, and he produced good results. Quote You mentioned "if Baker can be above average, you can be in a decent spot", which I agree with, but if Baker is above average, that means you probably have a SB team around him and he's the bottleneck. Another massive overstatement. The 2020 Browns were not a Super Bowl team. Quote The problem is, I think teams would rather tank (fans at least) than win an extra 3 games by giving up assets to get Baker instead of whatever they have currently, or a rookie, for example. That's not a great strategy for some teams. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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