blkwdw13 Posted February 16, 2022 Share Posted February 16, 2022 5 hours ago, Madmike90 said: I do get the thinking of just adding as many new guys and taking our chances to hit on someone that can help us more...difficult to do though as we have seen from the fact it has been ages since we have truly developed nothing into something...I think we can all say he isn't that good but we are on the outside looking in and he has survived the last 3 years here so he must offer something inside that building...again I would love to see competition brought in but I don't think he is such a huge liability that he can't make this roster as a bottom end player. This means nothing when we have seen other players play that shouldn’t have been playing. He’s a player that doesn’t move the needle at all and the type that should be improved upon. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dll2000 Posted February 16, 2022 Share Posted February 16, 2022 I feel like I am pooping on Holtz. When he came in 2019 he did some good things that other guys weren't doing. Namely Burton and Shaheen were playing like crap and underachieving. I thought Holtz and Horsted deserved to play and they eventually did that year (not soon enough) and the Bears were better for it. Holtz was a try hard making plays with 100% effort. Those are guys you like on bottom of roster. But since then Holtz has regressed. One thing that really sticks in my mind to illustrate is 2 lead plays by Bears. I wish I could find them both and post them side by side. One where Holtz, a 260 lb. TE, makes no block at all and with poor effort on a LB who makes the tackle for little or no gain. Nearly same exact play where Mooney, a 170 lb. WR, between tackles mind you, makes a great block on the LB and it is a large gain. I still can't believe Nagy had Mooney blocking a lead run between tackles, but it worked. It was pure want to. Mooney stuck his nose in the guy's chest and Holtz didn't. I suspect Nagy didn't even know what personnel he had in game when he sent Mooney up middle to lead play. At Thanksgiving I was talking to a friend (who is like a brother hence why he is at Thanksgiving). He was chatting with the father of a current Bears offensive player (if I told you why they were chatting it would be too much info) and he was told that is a mistake Nagy often made behind the scenes. The player did not have good things to say about Nagy privately. The quote was, "My little league coach was better." 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Madmike90 Posted February 16, 2022 Author Share Posted February 16, 2022 4 hours ago, blkwdw13 said: This means nothing when we have seen other players play that shouldn’t have been playing. He’s a player that doesn’t move the needle at all and the type that should be improved upon. Should be improved upon doesn't mean would be improved upon...some of you guys seem to think roster building is easy and you just swap out a bang average player for a better one...proof is in the pudding that isn't always the case...very few people are capable of playing in the NFL at any level...31 other teams out there all competing for talent...if it was so easy to find better than Holtz we would have done it 3 years ago. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blkwdw13 Posted February 16, 2022 Share Posted February 16, 2022 5 hours ago, Madmike90 said: Should be improved upon doesn't mean would be improved upon...some of you guys seem to think roster building is easy and you just swap out a bang average player for a better one...proof is in the pudding that isn't always the case...very few people are capable of playing in the NFL at any level...31 other teams out there all competing for talent...if it was so easy to find better than Holtz we would have done it 3 years ago. No but if you don't try and improve it you never will. Again we had Nagy and company for those three years, I'll take his ability to recognize talents as non existent. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Madmike90 Posted February 16, 2022 Author Share Posted February 16, 2022 2 minutes ago, blkwdw13 said: No but if you don't try and improve it you never will. Again we had Nagy and company for those three years, I'll take his ability to recognize talents as non existent. Again I think that is a bit unrealistic. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dll2000 Posted February 17, 2022 Share Posted February 17, 2022 23 hours ago, Madmike90 said: Should be improved upon doesn't mean would be improved upon...some of you guys seem to think roster building is easy and you just swap out a bang average player for a better one...proof is in the pudding that isn't always the case...very few people are capable of playing in the NFL at any level...31 other teams out there all competing for talent...if it was so easy to find better than Holtz we would have done it 3 years ago. I still think you are missing point. We all understand it is hard to project talent or find it. The hit rate for good or even average players in first round is not great. But there is a time to cut bait with low end talent veterans. They have a limited shelf life. You may keep them if they are special teams stand outs. Holtz is not a special teams stand out. You go with someone to fill that role with potential to be an average or better NFL starter - knowing full it isn't likely that is going to be the case. Once you know a player can't be average or better AND they are average on special teams you move on. Holtz is at that time. He is actually a year past that time. Jesse James fills that role better than him. Now find another young TE talent to develop and see if you discover an Antonio Gates. You won't find a diamond in rough if you aren't always looking for one. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Madmike90 Posted February 17, 2022 Author Share Posted February 17, 2022 37 minutes ago, dll2000 said: I still think you are missing point. We all understand it is hard to project talent or find it. The hit rate for good or even average players in first round is not great. But there is a time to cut bait with low end talent veterans. They have a limited shelf life. You may keep them if they are special teams stand outs. Holtz is not a special teams stand out. You go with someone to fill that role with potential to be an average or better NFL starter - knowing full it isn't likely that is going to be the case. Once you know a player can't be average or better AND they are average on special teams you move on. Holtz is at that time. He is actually a year past that time. Jesse James fills that role better than him. Now find another young TE talent to develop and see if you discover an Antonio Gates. You won't find a diamond in rough if you aren't always looking for one. It is undervaluing special teams to think you can just get rid of anyone who plays on teams but isn't a prospect to play on offence or defence...look at the Pats and Matthew Slater...these guys matter to your team and there is probably 3 or 4 guys on each team who are key to special teams...is Holtz one of them? I have no idea given the fact I don't know enough about specific roles on teams...I doubt most do at the NFL level...but what I do know is this guy dresses on most game days and has done for a while...there is a reason for that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blkwdw13 Posted February 17, 2022 Share Posted February 17, 2022 (edited) 43 minutes ago, Madmike90 said: It is undervaluing special teams to think you can just get rid of anyone who plays on teams but isn't a prospect to play on offence or defence...look at the Pats and Matthew Slater...these guys matter to your team and there is probably 3 or 4 guys on each team who are key to special teams...is Holtz one of them? I have no idea given the fact I don't know enough about specific roles on teams...I doubt most do at the NFL level...but what I do know is this guy dresses on most game days and has done for a while...there is a reason for that. But he isn’t good at STs either, that’s what most of us a saying. Try and replace him with a player that is better on STs while also having the potential to contribute on offense. Edited February 17, 2022 by blkwdw13 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Madmike90 Posted February 17, 2022 Author Share Posted February 17, 2022 8 minutes ago, blkwdw13 said: But he isn’t good at STs either, that’s what most of us a saying. Try and replace him with a player that is better on STs while also having the potential to contribute on offense. My point is do any of us know he isn't good on special teams? Because the guy consistently played on teams under Tabor who produced a good unit...I certianly don't have the knowledge to say if he was good or not...what is good on teams? Who grades it? When it is graded what does he look like? None of us know that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heinz D. Posted February 17, 2022 Share Posted February 17, 2022 Should we have the last few pages spun off into it's own, separate, J.P. Holtz thread? 😧 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Madmike90 Posted February 17, 2022 Author Share Posted February 17, 2022 5 minutes ago, Heinz D. said: Should we have the last few pages spun off into it's own, separate, J.P. Holtz thread? 😧 😂😂😂 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blkwdw13 Posted February 17, 2022 Share Posted February 17, 2022 1 hour ago, Madmike90 said: My point is do any of us know he isn't good on special teams? Because the guy consistently played on teams under Tabor who produced a good unit...I certianly don't have the knowledge to say if he was good or not...what is good on teams? Who grades it? When it is graded what does he look like? None of us know that. Well he has 9 career ST tackles, so I guess your standard is a lot lower than everyone else’s. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Madmike90 Posted February 17, 2022 Author Share Posted February 17, 2022 Just now, blkwdw13 said: Well he has 9 career ST tackles, so I guess your standard is a lot lower than everyone else’s. Yes because tackling is the only thing that happens on teams...this is my point in a nutshell. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bigbear72 Posted February 17, 2022 Share Posted February 17, 2022 32 minutes ago, Madmike90 said: Yes because tackling is the only thing that happens on teams...this is my point in a nutshell. Well, that being said, if we don't know then why beat a drum to save a guy that honestly probably is replacement level and probably has very little chance of making any type of real impact. We know he doesn't tackle and he isn't returning kicks, long snapping, punting, holding, or kicking. I think me can manage to find someone to throw a block on special teams that can possibly do more. I think you are making it more complicated then it is. Just my two cents. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Madmike90 Posted February 17, 2022 Author Share Posted February 17, 2022 1 minute ago, Bigbear72 said: Well, that being said, if we don't know then why beat a drum to save a guy that honestly probably is replacement level and probably has very little chance of making any type of real impact. We know he doesn't tackle and he isn't returning kicks, long snapping, punting, holding, or kicking. I think me can manage to find someone to throw a block on special teams that can possibly do more. I think you are making it more complicated then it is. Just my two cents. I'm not beating the drum to keep him...I have said he should have competition and that he is a bottom of the roster player...truthfully I it's not a big deal to me if we keep him or not...that said I don't get how anyone can say he is not a good special teams player or locker room guy with no tangible evidence of it...I would trust Tabor who routinely kept in out there over any of us who don't truly understand special teams player because none of us see it as being as important as offence or defence...if someone does have that kind of tangible evidence that he is useless I am all ears but if not then take him for what he is...#53 on a 53 man roster. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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