Free Agency- Possible Targets

[Thaiphoon]

6 minutes ago, DCNative said:

Less than 70%, makes me a little happier but still doesn't change my thought they gave up too much. At most a 3rd and 5th should've gotten this deal done. 

Yes, if he plays greater than 70% it's a 2nd. Less than 70% it's a 3rd. I also thought they gave up too much. However, if he plays well, and goes on to play for a few years for us as our starting QB and gets us to the playoffs, etc... then a 3rd and 2nd are cheap for a starting veteran QB

[DCNative]

1 minute ago, Thaiphoon said:

While he doesn't suck, I will tend to disagree with you. I think what improved the team greatly was their insistence to stock up on picks over the years (playing the NFL's version of Moneyball if you will) and load up on talent. Look at the talent across the board on that team now vs what they had just 6 years ago. Baker Mayfield has shown some good QBing. He's also shown some horrible QBing. At this point, the jury is still out on him (at least IMHO).

But remember, at the time we traded for Wentz he was on the Browns' roster (and he still is). So getting him would've also required a trade. 

I get you don't like Wentz. I'm not sold on him either. But I'm not seeing many great options for QBs this offseason when we traded for Wentz. That's not me excusing the trade or defending it. I'm just saying that we would have traded for someone. And at that time, he wasn't available.

He was available they just choose Wentz. Baker played in a way tougher division than the NFC East and has had Cleveland name relevant since he stepped in as the starting QB. If that plus coordinator after coordinator won't impress you guys, nothing will. 

[DCNative]

50 minutes ago, Thaiphoon said:

Yes, if he plays greater than 70% it's a 2nd. Less than 70% it's a 3rd. I also thought they gave up too much. However, if he plays well, and goes on to play for a few years for us as our starting QB and gets us to the playoffs, etc... then a 3rd and 2nd are cheap for a starting veteran QB

Guess I read that wrong. Wentz is more than likely to play more than 70%, so it will be a 2nd round pick next year. A pick between 40 and 50, even higher if they are picking top 5.

Edited May 20, 2022 by DCNative

[lavar703]

14 hours ago, MKnight82 said:

I agree that we have a better chance with Wentz than with Baker Mayfield and one or two more FA signings.  Ya. 

Based on what? Wentz hasn't been a good QB since 2017. Mayfield and Wentz I would say are pretty similar

[lavar703]

8 hours ago, Thaiphoon said:

While he doesn't suck, I will tend to disagree with you. I think what improved the team greatly was their insistence to stock up on picks over the years (playing the NFL's version of Moneyball if you will) and load up on talent. Look at the talent across the board on that team now vs what they had just 6 years ago. Baker Mayfield has shown some good QBing. He's also shown some horrible QBing. At this point, the jury is still out on him (at least IMHO).

But remember, at the time we traded for Wentz he was on the Browns' roster (and he still is). So getting him would've also required a trade. 

I get you don't like Wentz. I'm not sold on him either. But I'm not seeing many great options for QBs this offseason when we traded for Wentz. That's not me excusing the trade or defending it. I'm just saying that we would have traded for someone. And at that time, he (Baker Mayfield) wasn't available.

I think I'd rather have Heinecke and Howell plus our picks plus our cap space than Wentz. That's how I feel and I could totally be wrong but I just don't believe Wentz does anything other than take us out of the Bryce Young/CJ Stroud equation. So unless Howell is truly that diamond in the rough all we're doing is prolonging the same issue this team has had for 30 years now. 

[Thaiphoon]

1 minute ago, lavar703 said:

I think I'd rather have Heinecke and Howell plus our picks plus our cap space than Wentz. That's how I feel and I could totally be wrong but I just don't believe Wentz does anything other than take us out of the Bryce Young/CJ Stroud equation. So unless Howell is truly that diamond in the rough all we're doing is prolonging the same issue this team has had for 30 years now. 

I'm not disagreeing here. I wanted one of the rookie QBs instead of trading for any QB.

[Thaiphoon]

8 hours ago, DCNative said:

He was available they just choose Wentz. Baker played in a way tougher division than the NFC East and has had Cleveland name relevant since he stepped in as the starting QB. If that plus coordinator after coordinator won't impress you guys, nothing will. 

He wasn't available. The Watson deal didn't go down until after we traded for Wentz. The team called every other team about their QBs and were turned down at each one. Indy was the one that said yes. Now, does that bode well for Carson? I don't think so.

Remember the Browns were longshots to land Watson and even they didn't know if the trade would go through. And since they didn't, they held onto Baker Mayfield just in case it didn't. And it did, the following week after we traded for Wentz. So the Browns shot us down as they were trying to maintain a QB on the roster in case the Watson deal went south. 

So saying that Baker Mayfield was available is not accurate according to everything I've read on this.

At no point did I say he was a bad QB. I've said the jury is out on him IMHO. He plays great and then he plays so bad, you wonder if he's ever taken a snap under center. Some of his throws are so awful that I have a hard time believing he played in college and is a veteran QB. Can the same be said for Wentz? ABSOLUTELY! 

Which is why I didn't want to trade for ANY QB this offseason.

[MKnight82]

17 minutes ago, lavar703 said:

Based on what? Wentz hasn't been a good QB since 2017. Mayfield and Wentz I would say are pretty similar

Because peak Wentz has been better than anything Mayfield has done. 

[MKnight82]

13 minutes ago, lavar703 said:

I think I'd rather have Heinecke and Howell plus our picks plus our cap space than Wentz. That's how I feel and I could totally be wrong but I just don't believe Wentz does anything other than take us out of the Bryce Young/CJ Stroud equation. So unless Howell is truly that diamond in the rough all we're doing is prolonging the same issue this team has had for 30 years now. 

32 teams passed on Howell for 4 full rounds.  I would not be surprised if he wasn't on the roster in 2 years. 

[MKnight82]

5 minutes ago, Thaiphoon said:

Which is why I didn't want to trade for ANY QB this offseason.

They absolutely had to trade for a QB, the draft class was abysmal at QB. 

[Thaiphoon]

13 minutes ago, MKnight82 said:

They absolutely had to trade for a QB, the draft class was abysmal at QB. 

I would've picked up a QB on the waiver wire. I wasn't a fan of trading for a QB. And certainly not a 3rd and possible 2nd for one. 

Now, if he pans out and plays all three years and Howell is a bust? It was worth it. But I just was not enamored enough with any of the veteran QBs to trade for them. I think this is a situation where he keeps us around 8-9/7-10 and we're "outside looking in" on the top QBs next draft. I hope I'm wrong though and he reverts to the form he had in Philly right before his injury.

[Thaiphoon]

17 minutes ago, MKnight82 said:

32 teams passed on Howell for 4 full rounds.  I would not be surprised if he wasn't on the roster in 2 years. 

Fair point. It is quite possible that you're correct.

Counterpoint - quite a few players taken in rounds 4-7 have gone on to have great NFL careers (including some guy currently in Tampa). Are the odds against Howell? Yes. Does 32 teams passing on him for 4 rounds mean he is automatically a bust and will be out of the NFL in 2 years? Remains to be seen. I just want to see him in camp and in preseason to see for myself what we have in him. 

[MKnight82]

4 minutes ago, Thaiphoon said:

I would've picked up a QB on the waiver wire. I wasn't a fan of trading for a QB. And certainly not a 3rd and possible 2nd for one. 

Now, if he pans out and plays all three years and Howell is a bust? It was worth it. But I just was not enamored enough with any of the veteran QBs to trade for them. I think this is a situation where he keeps us around 8-9/7-10 and we're "outside looking in" on the top QBs next draft. I hope I'm wrong though and he reverts to the form he had in Philly right before his injury.

I just don't understand this response.  QB is far and away the most important position on the field.  Even the slightest upgrade can make your team exponentially better. Trading a 3rd, future 2nd (and swapping 2nds) for a solid QB is nothing.  I mean teams have given up first round picks for Sam Bradford.  

You don't just pick up starting QBs off the waiver wire.  Jimmy G and Baker Mayfield are still on rosters because they are too valuable to just cut. People saying Wentz was going to be cut should take note of that.  Also having Wentz in the building learning the playbook months ago rather than making some wild swing now for someone has value too. 

[Thaiphoon]

4 hours ago, MKnight82 said:

I just don't understand this response.  QB is far and away the most important position on the field.  Even the slightest upgrade can make your team exponentially better. Trading a 3rd, future 2nd (and swapping 2nds) for a solid QB is nothing.  I mean teams have given up first round picks for Sam Bradford.  

You don't just pick up starting QBs off the waiver wire.  Jimmy G and Baker Mayfield are still on rosters because they are too valuable to just cut. People saying Wentz was going to be cut should take note of that.  Also having Wentz in the building learning the playbook months ago rather than making some wild swing now for someone has value too. 

The point of my post was that while when Wentz is playing well, he's an upgrade. When he's not, he's not an upgrade. 

So trading a 3rd and a 2nd for a solid starting QB? I'll do that. 

Trading a 3rd and a 2nd for someone who is just Heinecke but slightly better and who may or may not be here in 2 years? I'm not as enthused. 

It all depends on which QB play we get from Wentz. Which is what I've been trying to convey. And the only way to see if it was a good trade is to see how he does here. I hope he does well as it locks down the position for the next bunch of years at least and makes us into a playoff contender. But again, it all depends on which Wentz shows up in B&G.

As for waiver wire. Nowhere did I say I was looking for a starting QB from it.

[turtle28]

6 hours ago, lavar703 said:

Based on what? Wentz hasn't been a good QB since 2017. Mayfield and Wentz I would say are pretty similar

Baker has never been good