Where do you see Russell Wilson's level of play now that he's in Denver?

[SaveOurSonics]

12 minutes ago, BullsandBroncos said:

Albert O is better than Fant 

O…..kay. 
 

Russ never played with Fant. I’d rebut that the combination of Everett and Dissly is better than Albert O and ???

[SkippyX]

8 hours ago, TheChancellor said:

It has been clear for a pretty long time now that Pete and his philosophy are not only outdated, but his initial success coincided with having a roster filled with actual Hall of Famers. So, in all these years, we have really only seen (at times prolonged) glimpses of what an unleashed Russ can actually do. It's baffling and insane that we've stuck with Pete and let Russ go, and he's for sure gonna have a whole lot of winning seasons in Denver. I could see him winning MVP with the Broncos in the next 3 years too, I don't think it's far fetched.

I'm sure Seahawks fans remember but not sure about others that the 2012 Seahawks had a chance for setting up a 3rd SB in 3 years.

They beat Atlanta in the playoffs... but Smart Guy Carroll iced the game losing FG with a timeout so Atlanta got another try and nailed it.

They would have played SF next and those 2 teams were closely matched.

Its fair to say that Pete cost them 2 playoff games and an outside shot at 3 SBs in 3 years.

[TheChancellor]

1 hour ago, SkippyX said:

I'm sure Seahawks fans remember but not sure about others that the 2012 Seahawks had a chance for setting up a 3rd SB in 3 years.

They beat Atlanta in the playoffs... but Smart Guy Carroll iced the game losing FG with a timeout so Atlanta got another try and nailed it.

They would have played SF next and those 2 teams were closely matched.

Its fair to say that Pete cost them 2 playoff games and an outside shot at 3 SBs in 3 years.

You bring up a very good point and I agree.

As the years go on, it feels like Pete's legacy isn't as great as it used to look, since it now seems that in many aspects he held the team back as much as he instilled some much needed culture in the team and the franchise once he took over.

Also, the recent comments from Greg Olsen have been pretty damning, but we've been saying it for years - it often truly felt like the coaching was holding the teams best playmakers back, instead of enabling them.

It's kinda bizarre, so I will always have a hard time understanding the decision to stick with Pete and JS and letting Russ go, when really Russ is the one who has been raising our ceiling, while Pete and JS have, in recent years, raised only our floor, at best.

[SkippyX]

To be fair to Pete, lots of coaches blow games.

BB had that 4th down play vs Indy that came up short.

BB also kept going for it on 4th in the 4th in the 2015 AFCCG when FGs might have meant a win. (it was that close despite the head bob center)

But BB also has 8 rings.

 

Andy Reid does some dumb things but he's a QB whisperer and an innovator on offense.

 

Pete's still a good coach, but he's not those guys and he's not perfect.

[AkronsWitness]

4 hours ago, SaveOurSonics said:

I can’t tell if the narrative around Seattle’s OLine is just something that has stuck with people through our Bevell years or if Russell’s camp has just masterfully spun it to be everyone’s fault but his own. 

The guy had Duane Brown on his blindside who is better than anyone the Broncos have. He recently had two talented pass blocking guards in Gabe Jackson and Damien Lewis. Brandon Shell is a better pass pro RT than anyone Denver has.

Seattle has ranked higher than Denver in pass block win rate in both of the last 2 seasons (I haven’t checked beyond that) despite having a QB that relentlessly holds onto the football. 

Seattle has put together an OL that by most standards is league average at worst. 
 

And yet, despite all of that, Russell STILL is among the league leaders in sacks and hits every year. Does anyone ever stop to wonder why that is? His average time from snap to pass is down there with Carson Wentz, Baker Mayfield, and Daniel Jones. That is not hyperbole. That is fact. 

The only personnel upgrade Russell is receiving in this move is at RB in Javonte Williams. That’s it. 

That great, but advanced metrics say Seattle had the 25th ranked OL in the NFL last year.

[SaveOurSonics]

13 minutes ago, AkronsWitness said:

That great, but advanced metrics say Seattle had the 25th ranked OL in the NFL last year.

That’s great. Per NFL Next Gen Stats, Seattle was tied for 12th in the league with a 61% pass block win rate. For the purposes of this conversation, I don’t care what the run blocking or overall grade is. 

So, to answer your original question, we know what Russ will do if he has a good pass blocking OLine. We’ve seen it, despite the popular narrative that Seattle’s OL is “garbage”. He’ll struggle with field vision and hesitate to pull the trigger on 50/50 balls, and that evidence is with better receivers + better chemistry/timing than what he’ll have in Denver. 

[AkronsWitness]

2 minutes ago, SaveOurSonics said:

That’s great. Per NFL Next Gen Stats, Seattle was tied for 12th in the league with a 61% pass block win rate. For the purposes of this conversation, I don’t care what the run blocking or overall grade is. 

So, to answer your original question, we know what Russ will do if he has a good pass blocking OLine. We’ve seen it, despite the popular narrative that Seattle’s OL is “garbage”. He’ll struggle with field vision and hesitate to pull the trigger on 50/50 balls, and that evidence is with better receivers + better chemistry/timing than what he’ll have in Denver. 

Per PFF they were 25 lol

25. SEATTLE SEAHAWKS (DOWN 1)

LT Duane Brown | 72.0
LG Damien Lewis | 57.7
C Ethan Pocic | 68.0
RG Gabe Jackson | 63.6
RT Brandon Shell | 67.6

Seattle’s offensive line just can’t find a way to get out of its rut, and if anything is going to convince quarterback Russell Wilson that maybe the grass is greener somewhere else, it may be that. Duane Brown has been the unit's best player since the team traded for him in 2017, but he just posted his lowest PFF grade (72.0) since he was a rookie. Wilson was under pressure on 37.0% of his dropbacks this season, one of the higher marks in the league.

Edited March 10, 2022 by AkronsWitness

[SaveOurSonics]

EDIT

Edited March 10, 2022 by SaveOurSonics

[AFlaccoSeagulls]

16 minutes ago, AkronsWitness said:

Per PFF they were 25 lol

25. SEATTLE SEAHAWKS (DOWN 1)

LT Duane Brown | 72.0
LG Damien Lewis | 57.7
C Ethan Pocic | 68.0
RG Gabe Jackson | 63.6
RT Brandon Shell | 67.6

Seattle’s offensive line just can’t find a way to get out of its rut, and if anything is going to convince quarterback Russell Wilson that maybe the grass is greener somewhere else, it may be that. Duane Brown has been the unit's best player since the team traded for him in 2017, but he just posted his lowest PFF grade (72.0) since he was a rookie. Wilson was under pressure on 37.0% of his dropbacks this season, one of the higher marks in the league.

Is this PFF ranking them on their grades or statistics? Because we all know PFF's grades are a complete joke.

Edited March 10, 2022 by AFlaccoSeagulls

[SaveOurSonics]

17 minutes ago, AkronsWitness said:

Per PFF they were 25 lol

 

19 minutes ago, SaveOurSonics said:

For the purposes of this conversation, I don’t care what the run blocking or overall grade is.

 

[LoFi]

As a Seahawk fan I have seen Wilson for many years. He's been a good QB for us, but Wilson does come with some very special quirks and features that you don't see with most top tier QBs. 

Russell Wilson is a quarterback with an unrefined game in many respects. In Seattle he didn't have much responsibility pre-snap or much agency to change out of plays. In 2021 when they gave him more freedom here, he made some pretty dumb decisions on audibles and such. He isn't a field general type of QB and in this area of his game he isn't that great. He's not going to dictate the game from the LOS like Brady, or Manning did. 

Russell Wilson is not great in the short passing game. Wilson will flat out miss the easy short throws and he almost completely avoids the middle of the field. If you look at his passing charts, he is consistently among the bottom in passes throw over the middle. He's not great at timing and rhythm throw, and he's really bad at setting up screens.

Wilson also has a tendency to press when his deep ball is taken away. He'll start making dumb decisions and tries to force the ball. Now, good thing is, Wilson won't turn it over, bad thing is Wilson's offenses tend to stall if he gets in this mode. Wilson also has the tendency to not go for the easy throw on third down, and try to throw deep on third and short. He has a bad tendency to play hero ball, which leads to 10+ yard sacks at inopportune times and stalling on third down. 

Last but not least, he struggles against cover 2 shell and he doesn't seem to see the whole field. Teams that come out with their cover 2 disguised, really throw Wilson off. This is one of the biggest reasons for his decline in the second half of 2020 and 2021. 

So, you may be thinking -- you're making him sound like a flaming dumpster fire. Wilson still has some benefits as a player, and he will win you many games. Russell Wilson is the best play action and deep ball passer in the NFL. His deep ball alone can win you games. Sometimes he has the tendency to rope a dope. Disappear until he gets one good deep ball in, then it opens the floodgates. Wilson is also extremely accurate on the move, give him a play action into a rollout, and he's an extremely dangerous man. 

Wilson also is also extremely careful with the ball. He rarely turns it over and he's fairly intelligent about his risk taking. His ball placement on his intermediate to deep routes is also among the best in the NFL. He'll throw it such that only your guy will catch it, or no one will. His deep ball is going to be a sight to behold, i'm telling you. 

Wilson still can pull off some BS with his legs, though not to the same degree he once did. He's slower, and not as agile as he used to be, but he's still a threat to run and improvise. 

Best of all, Wilson is extremely clutch in the fourth quarter. I've seen him pull of some straight BS in the comeback department. He has ice water running through his veins when the game is on the line. He is the reason that Seattle has had as many winning seasons as we have. Pete Carroll's teams often times tread water until the 4th quarter than they come alive, Wilson is a huge reason this conservative style worked for many years. Carroll likes to keep it close and play the toxic differential game, then let Wilson clean up in the 4th. 

What will Wilson do on the Broncos? Tough to say. Hackett is going to have to take special care to develop an offense around Wilson and his special traits. Wilson isn't your typical QB in just about every respect. He has a unique skill set that needs to be catered to. Wilson also is at a phase where he's going to need to refine his game or he's going to face irrelevancy. Wilson doesn't have the same arm, or same athleticism that the young version of him had. It showed even before he got injured last season. That being said would I have moved on from Wilson? Absolutely not. I think Carroll did Wilson dirty over the years and has hindered his growth as a player. I'm interested to see what he will evolve to be in Denver, underneath an offensive oriented coach.

[JetsCrash]

The weak o-line will probably have him producing at a similar to he did in Seattle (where he also had a shaky o-line for much of his career). So I would say top 10, but not top 5, and he still has around 5 years left of great quarterbacking left in him. 

[paul-mac]

58 minutes ago, JetsCrash said:

The weak o-line will probably have him producing at a similar to he did in Seattle (where he also had a shaky o-line for much of his career). So I would say top 10, but not top 5, and he still has around 5 years left of great quarterbacking left in him. 

Denver don’t have a weak OL. The only hole is RT and they’ll be addressing that in FA 

[Tk3]

I agree with everything in OP

Russ isn't elite-elite. He's not going to have Rodgers like production. He's not going to develop Josh Allen or Mahomes type of physical skills. But he's going to be an excellent QB.

I've never had him as high as most, but I definitely can't name 10 QBs who will be better in 2022 (might argue a couple others based on age, but that's a different conversation)
 

On 3/9/2022 at 3:35 PM, SaveOurSonics said:

We will find out this year if Russ can actually cook or if, after all this time, Pete Carroll was actually doing the right thing by limiting his volume and maximizing his per pass efficiency. As of right now, I'd say he's definitely in that 5-10 range when he's right. I'd personally place him more in the back half of that group mostly because his style of play seems to be on the decline with every year he loses athleticism. 

This is a VERY underrated question. The assumption has always been that Russ is being held back, but I'm not 100% convinced that he's actually the guy you want slinging it all over the field. Especially the last couple of years I've seen him get a little too loose in his decision making for my liking. 2020 for example he was going wild to Lockett and DK, but he also made more bad choices that season then I've ever seen before

[Shanedorf]

On 3/11/2022 at 3:24 AM, LoFi said:

Hackett is going to have to take special care to develop an offense around Wilson and his special traits.

First of all, great write up, thanks for doing it.

Hackett will have to cater to Russ- and fortunately he has the pedigree to do it. Nathaniel learned a ton from his father Paul growing up ( a highly- respected NFL offensive mind). He's also had the chance to work in a variety of offenses with different QBs over the years- including helping Bortles to make an AFCCG.
So Hackett is a lifelong student of the game and his time with Rodgers and MLF added more to his repertoire. He's also gone so far as to hire a teacher for the asst. coaches - to teach them HOW to teach & reach different players. Added together, I don't think Russ could have landed in a better spot to cater to his strengths.