Do you know enough to give up on Deshone Kizer?

[bruceb]

31 minutes ago, MWil23 said:

I bet good money that you two who are all for intentionally losing 30+ games over a two-year period of time aren’t buying tickets and wasting your money. Fair or not the front office owes it to fans to try their best to put a quality product on the field because after all we are the ones helping pay everyone’s salary in that taxpayer funded stadium.

I usually go to 2-3 games a year.

Down to 1 (Ravens) this year due primarily to lack of family interest in going with me.

[Thomas5737]

Just now, bruceb said:

Down to 1 (Ravens) this year due primarily to lack of family interest in going with me.

Maybe you should bite the bullet and let them go without you.

[bruceb]

1 minute ago, Thomas5737 said:

Maybe you should bite the bullet and let them go without you.

I still would have to pay for the tix.

And probably have to pay for their brunch.

[DawgX]

4 hours ago, big poppa pump said:

I don't want to hate on Sashi.  I just don't think the roster is as talented as you do.  You are putting all the blame on the past regimes, and Hue.  I agree with you on both fronts, but I think Sashi and Depodesta have a good amount of blame to share.  You are looking at "names" and saying "wow this team actually looks good on paper"  I don't think the talent is nearly as good as you do.  If the talent was better, I don't give an ish how bad Hue is as a coach....we would have wins to show for it.

 

The jury is still out on the past two drafts, but you would have to agree that they didn't bring in much veteran leadership to help with the rebuild process.  They not only passed on Wentz, but also Watson.  In that epic trade down where we netted Corey Coleman, we not only passed up Wentz, but Jalen Ramsey, Zeke, and Bosa.   If Trubisky, and or Mahomes light it up, then it won't matter how good Myles is...it will be another miss.  They didn't get in on the Garrapolo trade, when they have the assets to do so.  They gave their rookie 2nd round pick Kizer very little to work with, which makes it awfully tough to get an accurate picture of how good he is.

 

I don't have faith that they will get it right this year.  They are about to have a top 3 pick for the third year in a row.  I am not so sure how you don't see a problem with that.  There should be a natural progression in a positive direction.  Being this bad has plenty of blame to go around.

 

Do you really think Wentz and Watson would look nearly as good as they do if they were in Cleveland? Maybe they would, but I doubt t. And this is coming from someone who actually really liked Wentz (I was so-so on Watson) and would have been perfectly content to take him at #2. Obviously a franchise QB is better than a great DE, but I don't think anyone thought the Browns made the wrong decision in taking Garrett #1. It's not like Trubisky is looking that great thus far this season, and we haven't seen anything from Mahomes.

I don't think Sashi and company have been perfect by any means, but I think they've done a good job overall considering what they started off with. Coleman's main problem has been staying healthy, but he's looked very good at times. Especially considering he's had to play with how many different QBs in less than two years? If he can stay healthy, then I think he'll be a legit second option at receiver. But Sashi has done things like added Collins, Schobert (who's looking like a steal), Ogbah, Nassib (a solid third DE), Garrett, McCourty, Kindred (at the very least a good backup safety), BBC, Zeitler, Coleman and Tretter among others. Along with extending players like Bitonio and Kirksey. The only things I haven't liked is that he let Schwartz walk (although Coleman is looking like a solid RT already, so maybe it was the right call to save money) and that he's done a poor job at acquiring talent at WR besides Coleman. I also didn't like that we didn't use the franchise tag on Pryor, but it's not like he's lighting things up in Washington. Obviously if we're not able to find an answer at QB then it won't really matter what else Sashi has done, but I think he's done a respectable job thus far.

[bruceb]

1 hour ago, DawgX said:

Obviously if we're not able to find an answer at QB then it won't really matter what else Sashi has done, but I think he's done a respectable job thus far.

Agree.

Still do not completely trust him and Harvard guys -- and certainly do not trust Hue -- to pick the QB with our first #1 pick.

[buno67]

8 hours ago, bruceb said:

Agree.

Still do not completely trust him and Harvard guys -- and certainly do not trust Hue -- to pick the QB with our first #1 pick.

Well the good thing is Hue can’t mess up the QB at #1. It’s going to be Darnold or Rosen. I prefer Rosen. I also believe Hue might prefer Rosen because he compares to Goff. 

That is one thing Hue could be a positive about. The one QB that has been published that he truly wanted was Goff. This year Goff looks like the real deal. Man if the Browns could of just drafted Him and all this stuff would of never happened

[Aztec Hammer]

37 minutes ago, buno67 said:

Well the good thing is Hue can’t mess up the QB at #1. It’s going to be Darnold or Rosen. I prefer Rosen. I also believe Hue might prefer Rosen because he compares to Goff. 

That is one thing Hue could be a positive about. The one QB that has been published that he truly wanted was Goff. This year Goff looks like the real deal. Man if the Browns could of just drafted Him and all this stuff would of never happened

That's not really a positive... considering he wanted Goff over a QB who is better, who he had the chance to take but decided wasn't worthy.

Let's say just for argument's sake, he sees Rosen as Goff and Darnold as Wentz. If he were to go for Rosen because he preferred the Goff comparison. That's a problem.

I like both QBs so I think we should hopefully be alright. At this point I'd rather someone else than Hue Jackson was the man to pick and coach whoever it is.

[dawgdish]

11 hours ago, DawgX said:

I don't think Sashi and company have been perfect by any means, but I think they've done a good job overall considering what they started off with. Coleman's main problem has been staying healthy, but he's looked very good at times. Especially considering he's had to play with how many different QBs in less than two years? If he can stay healthy, then I think he'll be a legit second option at receiver. But Sashi has done things like added Collins, Schobert (who's looking like a steal), Ogbah, Nassib (a solid third DE), Garrett, McCourty, Kindred (at the very least a good backup safety), BBC, Zeitler, Coleman and Tretter among others. Along with extending players like Bitonio and Kirksey. The only things I haven't liked is that he let Schwartz walk (although Coleman is looking like a solid RT already, so maybe it was the right call to save money) and that he's done a poor job at acquiring talent at WR besides Coleman. I also didn't like that we didn't use the franchise tag on Pryor, but it's not like he's lighting things up in Washington. Obviously if we're not able to find an answer at QB then it won't really matter what else Sashi has done, but I think he's done a respectable job thus far.

One thing people always loose sight of when evaluating Sashi's performance is that he was a major cog in the previous front office as well, so you also have to blame him, in part, for what he started off with in the role he (inexplicably) got promoted into. That's not to say it's all on him, there's plenty of blame to go around from the owner, the F.O., the coaches, and the players, but aside from Haslam, nobody has played as key a role in our last 4 years of futility as Sashi. I just don't get why people give him a pass.

[LETSGOBROWNIES]

24 minutes ago, dawgdish said:

One thing people always loose sight of when evaluating Sashi's performance is that he was a major cog in the previous front office as well, so you also have to blame him, in part, for what he started off with in the role he (inexplicably) got promoted into. That's not to say it's all on him, there's plenty of blame to go around from the owner, the F.O., the coaches, and the players, but aside from Haslam, nobody has played as key a role in our last 4 years of futility as Sashi. I just don't get why people give him a pass.

I don't get why some people blame him for Ray Farmer being bad at his job.

Some things are just perplexing I suppose.

[big poppa pump]

1 hour ago, LETSGOBROWNIES said:

I don't get why some people blame him for Ray Farmer being bad at his job.

Some things are just perplexing I suppose.

I also find it perplexing how Sashi gets a pass for not getting us/ passing up QB's because that was somehow Hue's job....but.....he can't be criticized for having a hand in the picks from the previous regime since he wasn't in charge......

[buno67]

2 hours ago, Aztec Hammer said:

That's not really a positive... considering he wanted Goff over a QB who is better, who he had the chance to take but decided wasn't worthy.

Let's say just for argument's sake, he sees Rosen as Goff and Darnold as Wentz. If he were to go for Rosen because he preferred the Goff comparison. That's a problem.

I like both QBs so I think we should hopefully be alright. At this point I'd rather someone else than Hue Jackson was the man to pick and coach whoever it is.

I don’t know if I would say Wentz is always going to be better than Goff. I think what Goff is doing in his first year with McVay is pretty good. I think he would be further along if it wasnt for fisher. Wentz wasn’t just a Hue decision IMO and that’s what has been reported as well  

Yeah it sucks the browns missed out on Wentz but he was a big gamble for a new coach and new FO. It’s hard to invest a #2 overal pick into a QB who was being scouted as being injury prone, played small school football, lacked tape, and had questionable throwing mechanics. Eagles was a lot better situation for him than the Browns. Add the fact that the Browns new they were going to rebuild they didn’t want to take the gamble on a QB they were 100% sold on. So they played it safe and traded the pick. I rather have a FO who doesn’t just take a QB to just take a QB. It seems like if they don’t get the QB they love they won’t highly invest into one for the hell of it. Hence why I don’t think the browns took Watson. I believe they all liked Kizer and liked it at the spot they got him. This year I believe they will like both Rosen or Darnold and why one of them will be the pick. I couldn’t see them drafting anyone else beside one of those two. 

Also with how Raw Wentz was I don’t know if I would trust hue’s hands on him. That might be why Hue wanted Goff more because he wasn’t as raw. Hence why I think Rosen would be the pick over Darnold. 

[LETSGOBROWNIES]

46 minutes ago, big poppa pump said:

I also find it perplexing how Sashi gets a pass for not getting us/ passing up QB's because that was somehow Hue's job....but.....he can't be criticized for having a hand in the picks from the previous regime since he wasn't in charge......

I'm not giving him a pass, I'm just not critisizing him yet.

There were 45-50 holes on this roster when he took over.  If the organization thought the overall talent level was such that a rookie wouldn't succeed or whatever, so be it, it's hard to argue.  

Now certainly the time has come where they can't kick the can any further. Next year' they better have the top qb in the draft, Kirk Cousins or Kizer had better be awfully damned good or I'll be complaining too.

They haven't been perfect and have certainly missed some guys, every GM does.  But some folks, yourself included, seem to have unrealistic expectations or a different view of the state of the roster that he inherited than I, and others, do.

Either way, we've been having this same discussion for a few months now, I'm not sure what else needs to be said. 

 

[dawgdish]

2 hours ago, LETSGOBROWNIES said:

I don't get why some people blame him for Ray Farmer being bad at his job.

Some things are just perplexing I suppose.

I guess you should look up the definition of "organization" and that might clear things up for you. Farmer,  epic failure that he was, wasn't the only guy in the front office.

After that, look up the record of Jags and Browns teams Sashi has been involved in, and tell me why you reflexively defend him at every turn.

[LETSGOBROWNIES]

10 minutes ago, dawgdish said:

I guess you should look up the definition of "organization" and that might clear things up for you. Farmer,  epic failure that he was, wasn't the only guy in the front office.

After that, look up the record of Jags and Browns teams Sashi has been involved in, and tell me why you reflexively defend him at every turn.

You have no clue what his role was, how much influence (if any) he had on player acquisition, ect.  You seem to think because he worked in the front office he was directly responsible for another GM's decisions??

Common sense tells me that if everyone else, Scheiner, Farmer, Pettine, etc were all fired for their roles in that clusterf*** and Sashi was promoted that he obviously didnt seem to agree with what they were doing.

Sashi was a salary cap/contract guy with the Jags and was well regarded when hired.  Blaming the beer guy in Jax would be just as sensible as blaming Sashi, it wasn't Sashi making the personnel decisions.

You seem to mistake me correcting your illogical criticism with defending him. I'm not defending anything, simply advocating for patience with this front office. 

[dawgdish]

2 hours ago, LETSGOBROWNIES said:

You have no clue what his role was, how much influence (if any) he had on player acquisition, ect.  You seem to think because he worked in the front office he was directly responsible for another GM's decisions??

Common sense tells me that if everyone else, Scheiner, Farmer, Pettine, etc were all fired for their roles in that clusterf*** and Sashi was promoted that he obviously didnt seem to agree with what they were doing.

Sashi was a salary cap/contract guy with the Jags and was well regarded when hired.  Blaming the beer guy in Jax would be just as sensible as blaming Sashi, it wasn't Sashi making the personnel decisions.

You seem to mistake me correcting your illogical criticism with defending him. I'm not defending anything, simply advocating for patience with this front office. 

Good to know you think the beer guy and a top exec carry the same weight and importance in an organization. Common sense and logic have nothing to do with Haslam's running this team. If the beer guy did nothing but miss his quotas and spill drinks for several years, I'd expect him to be out, whereas Haslam might promote him to head custodian or put him in charge of the gift shop. 

My criticism is completely logical - our GM did nothing to earn the role he currently has, but I definitely agree with you in that the only logical thing to do is to give this regime another year of patience in their rebuild, as it was in no shape to be just a 2 year thing, and they've shown some signs of competency despite the abysmal record.