Top 5 TE to start the 2022 Season

[TheRealMcCoy]

For the record Waller would be right with Pitts for me. They are great receivers.

I think after this season I'll move Pitts above Waller, but that's me projecting.

I'd put Kittle and Kelce in the top 2 cause they've been top TEs for years now. I don't think that's controversial.

I'd probably put Andrews after those two and Goedert after him. They're more complete TEs than Pitts & Waller.

I think those guys I listed are the top 6 though.

If you want to place Goedert 6th out of the bunch, then that's cool, but he's in that top 5-6.

Edited May 26, 2022 by TheRealMcCoy

[TheRealMcCoy]

2 minutes ago, Soggust said:

I actually agree with every single thing you said here and really shouldn't even respond but want to clarify this -

We do believe he is a great player hampered by situation. Absolutely 100%.

I think Terry Mclaurin is also a great player hampered by situation. I still don't rank him in my top 5, regardless, however, because FAIRLY OR NOT, I can't just add 400 yards to his yearly totals. He might be top 5 talent, I just don't think he's proven (or has the resume, if that sounds better) to be a top 5 player yet, that's all.

Fair enough.

I'm right there with you on Terry. I love him and what he's produced with the QBs he's had is really impressive. I'm caught between wanting to see him thrive and not wanting to see Wentz do well lol.

[Soggust]

5 minutes ago, Jeezla said:

Drives me crazy when people would say Harden > Kawhi or Jimmy Butler. Uh no, he sucks at half his job, even if he's a better scorer.

Is Tyler Kroft or [insert some other example] a top 10 TE since blocking is half the game?

Obviously, it's not half the game in your TE1 in 2022.

[Jeezla]

3 minutes ago, Soggust said:

Is Tyler Kroft or [insert some other example] a top 10 TE since blocking is half the game?

Obviously, it's not half the game in your TE1 in 2022.

He would be if he was a good receiver too since receiving is also half his job. This isn't rocket science. Yes, if you are a top blocker and also a good receiver, you are top TE. If you are only a good blocker, but a bad receiver, then you aren't a good TE.

Edited May 26, 2022 by Jeezla

[Soggust]

Just now, Jeezla said:

He would be if he was a good receiver too since receiving is also half his job. This isn't rocket science.

So then everyone in the top 10 is a good blocker? 

[Jeezla]

5 minutes ago, Soggust said:

So then everyone in the top 10 is a good blocker? 

No, there aren't a lot of TE's good at both. The fact that Kittle and Goedert are good at both solidifies them as top TE's

Edited May 26, 2022 by Jeezla

[Soggust]

Just now, Jeezla said:

No, there aren't a lot of TE's good at both.

Let's say we give 5 points for blocking and 5 for receiving (since we weight them 50/50)

Kroft gets 5 for blocking - 1 for receiving
Waller gets 5 for receiving - 1 for blocking (ranked like 81st among TEs in 2020 or something)

Same quality player because it's half the game right?

============================================

Look, I realize I'm polarizing this to the absolute extreme here, but where I'm really going with this is that even if we say Goedert is a significantly better blocker than guys above him, I gotta believe it's not enough for most people to make up the receiving difference (to date) and it's certainly not half the game for a TE1 in 2022 lol.

That's all.

But I will concede it's generally undervalued and would be a great argument for separation in my tiers imo (e.g. arguing over Schultz).

[Jeezla]

2 minutes ago, Soggust said:

e.g. arguing over Schultz

or Kittle over every TE besides Kelce.

a 5 point system makes it look dumb, but 100 point would be more reasonable, and obviously you weigh out receiving more, but you can't just base it off purely receiving. Otherwise, why not just start a WR inline? Blocking might not be half the game (Although it is for Eagles TE's) but it's still at least 35%.

Edited May 26, 2022 by Jeezla

[Jeezla]

As far as Goedert being a victim of circumstance statistically, what do non-Raider fans think Waller would get playing for Philly and catching passes from Jalen Hurts/2020 Wentz? Would you project the same amount of yards and TD's as you project for him in LV?

If you combined Jerry Rice and Calvin Johnson into one player, that dude would be lucky to get 120 targets in the Eagles scheme.

And for that reason, AJ Brown and DeVonta Smith- Do not draft them high in fantasy! They are not going to get WR1 targets. DeVonta lead the team with 104. 2nd was Goedert with 76. Eagles skill players are most likely fantasy fools gold (although Hurts will actually end up like QB8 with his rushing stats).

Edited May 26, 2022 by Jeezla

[Soggust]

10 minutes ago, Jeezla said:

or Kittle over every TE besides Kelce.

a 5 point system makes it look dumb, but 100 point would be more reasonable, and obviously you weigh out receiving more, but you can't just base it off purely receiving. Otherwise, why not just start a WR inline? Blocking might not be half the game (Although it is for Eagles TE's) but it's still at least 35%.

I remember this being used to separate Kittle ABOVE Kelce not too long ago.

But yeah I think that's fair as is the rest of this. I think 35 a little generous but it's also scheme dependent, right? I come from Kelce who I never want blocking (don't hurt mah baby), so it's probably much less valuable than the #1 running team in football.

 

6 minutes ago, Jeezla said:

As far as Goedert being a victim of circumstance statistically, what do non-Raider fans think Waller would get playing for Philly and catching passes from Jalen Hurts/2020 Wentz? Way more yards than Goedert? 

But circumstance matters. Because unless Jalen improves dramatically or he gets traded, he's always going to be in that situation.

You're thinking talent, but neutral folks are just looking at resumes because we hear this same argument from every team about every player. Sometimes, they are right (too high to think of good example) and the player just needed a chance. More often, they are Baker Mayfield. I'm not saying I think Goedert is Mayfield, but in the spirit of impartiality I just go off resumes for everyone, because it's the most unbiased way to do it. 

It's why I would rank Brady and Rodgers over Mahomes, even though he's my boy and obv #1 in my heart. 

 

[Jeezla]

10 minutes ago, Soggust said:

unless Jalen improves dramatically or he gets traded, he's always going to be in that situation.

Hard to say. Is our scheme the way it is because Hurts is our QB vs a gunslinger QB? I dunno. I think things (Our run/pass ratio) would change if we drafted Bryce Young or some other QB capable of throwing over 4000 yards, but I might be wrong. I think Sirianni would change to suit the skillset of his QB tho. If Hurts looks like the same guy, we'll be drafting a QB for sure, and then maybe Goedert can really take off, along with DeVonta and AJ. Or maybe Hurts makes huge strides as a passer and Nick totally changes the ratio this year (doubt it). Guess we'll find out in 4 months. I'm expecting minor improvement, but nothing incredible. And maybe 55/45 pass run ratio, but not 60/40. Hurts ain't throwing for 4000 yards imo. Probably around 3600.

Edited May 26, 2022 by Jeezla

[NYRaider]

6 hours ago, TheRealMcCoy said:

For the record Waller would be right with Pitts for me. They are great receivers.

I think after this season I'll move Pitts above Waller, but that's me projecting.

I'd put Kittle and Kelce in the top 2 cause they've been top TEs for years now. I don't think that's controversial.

I'd probably put Andrews after those two and Goedert after him. They're more complete TEs than Pitts & Waller.

I think those guys I listed are the top 6 though.

If you want to place Goedert 6th out of the bunch, then that's cool, but he's in that top 5-6.

Agreed. Waller/Pitts are more dynamic weapons and are essentially just jumbo WR's more than they're true TEs. 

I'd personally move Andrews above Kittle but behind Kelce currently if we're projecting next season. 

[NYRaider]

6 hours ago, Jeezla said:

Hard to say. Is our scheme the way it is because Hurts is our QB vs a gunslinger QB? I dunno. I think things (Our run/pass ratio) would change if we drafted Bryce Young or some other QB capable of throwing over 4000 yards, but I might be wrong. I think Sirianni would change to suit the skillset of his QB tho. 

Your system is 100% the way that it is because Jalen Hurts is your QB. The KC/Dallas games last year early in the season illustrate that. Nick was using Hurts like he still had Andrew Luck at QB trying to sling the ball all over the field. Once he realized that wasn't really going to work with Hurts you guys became a run heavy team. I wasn't a fan of Nick early on but seeing his willingness to completely change his offensive philosophy mid-season was impressive and a sign that he will be a good coach, imo. 

The one season that Nick had Luck in Indy the Colts were 2nd in pass attempts (6th in yards/2nd in TD) and 17th in rushing attempts (20th in yards/16th in TD). 

I personally expect to see Hurts take a step this year with another year in the system under his belt. Smith should be better in year two, Goedert should be better coming in knowing he's the guy, and AJ Brown is a stud. It will be tough to defend you guys because you'll be able to keep teams off balance. 

[Soko]

11 hours ago, Jeezla said:

As far as Goedert being a victim of circumstance statistically, what do non-Raider fans think Waller would get playing for Philly and catching passes from Jalen Hurts/2020 Wentz? Would you project the same amount of yards and TD's as you project for him in LV?

I would assume he still gets high volume because I doubt he’d be pigeonholed into playing the exact same role Goedert does. Waller is a better receiver, naturally he’d get more targets. 

In 5 games without Lamar this past season, Mark Andrews still saw 54 targets. It’s certainly relevant that Andrews was pretty much the only consistent, proven receiving threat on the team, but I think it’s a small example of how QB play or scheme doesn’t often factor into volume for tight ends. The good ones get targeted because…they’re good. 

I’m not sure why Goedert doesn’t get more thrown his way. But you don’t get extra points for less volume and guys don’t lose points for showing that they get the volume.

Edited May 26, 2022 by Yin-Yang

[NYRaider]

1 hour ago, Yin-Yang said:

I would assume he still gets high volume because I doubt he’d be pigeonholed into playing the exact same role Goedert does. Waller is a better receiver, naturally he’d get more targets. 

That's the thing with Waller too, when he's on he has shown that he's basically unstoppable. The Jets game a couple years ago and the Ravens game last year are good examples.