Top 5 TE to start the 2022 Season

[Soggust]

Glad I missed this thread and I didn't have to defend a Raider, because Goedert > Waller is a terrible take currently lol.

[diamondbull424]

On 5/15/2022 at 12:17 PM, Jeezla said:

Because context matters you dolt.

 

What? Who do you think you’re talking to like that?

I didn’t insult you and yet you feel it’s okay to hurl insults at people. You’re a keyboard warrior because I’m sure you absolutely wouldn’t do that in person.

Beyond that, what context? Goedert was in an offense last season where you had DeVonta Smith, Zach Ertz, and MAYBE Jalen Raegor as the only 2-3 options that should’ve stole targets away.

Andrews was in an offense with Hollywood Brown, Sammy Watkins/Rashod Bateman (basically combining them due to injuries) as the options to draw targets away and yet he achieve heavy volume, while in a similar exposure setting, Goedert did not.

So if you’re going to apply “context” for increased volume, there should be some legitimate path for said increased volume to make sense. As in “Goedert went down with injury but prior to that he was on pace to achieve x.” Or “Goedert is playing in a loaded offense with few targets to go around and thus his targets are low”. You’re literally bringing up context when Goedert is playing within an offense last season where he likely had one of his better opportunity seasons to produce given the dearth of options to steal targets away. Next season he will be competing for targets with more talent and so even with an increase in targets, why bring up 153 targets given the situation, there is 0 relevance unless you believe he will achieve that many targets playing alongside Brown and Smith.

On 5/15/2022 at 12:17 PM, Jeezla said:

That's not a loaded TE room and his undeniable production as a rookie was 552 yards and 3 td's. Wow, what a crazy season.

Nick Boyle- Top 3 best blocking TEs in the NFL within a run dominant offense. 
Maxx Williams- One of the better blocking TEs in the NFL and an average receiving option- when healthy. Has been a quality #2 TE elsewhere.
Hayden Hurst- 1st round pick clout that season and was an above average receiving option. Was a #1 TE elsewhere.
Darren Waller- Practice squad. Left and became one of the best TEs in the NFL. He was killing it in practice and preseason, was only a matter of time.

I’m not sure how a TE room could be much better stacked. All of those guys were strong talents and most saw a lot of playing time, so Andrews had less volume, but had increased efficiency- which is a typical statistical response.

Which is why the nonsense about Goedert having similar targets as Andrews is nonsense. Because if he had similar targets, his efficiency would go down. The law of diminishing return, same as happened with Andrews where he went from 11 yards/target, which is a greater efficiency than Goedert this past season, yet given the additional targets, his efficiency numbers went down.

Hence your terribly cherry-picked numbers that don’t consider diminishing return.

On 5/15/2022 at 12:17 PM, Jeezla said:

no you haven't. Goedert has only played 4 seasons. You telling me that during his rookie season, us Eagle fans were saying "Goedert needs more targets than Ertz" the year after Zach Ertz helped us win our SB and was considered a top 3 TE in the NFL? Sure, bud. You've been hearing this excuse for exactly 2 seasons. Not 3 or 4. 

I’ve been hearing since after their rookie seasons that Goedert is better than Andrews because of “x” and “y”… and context is needed to explain why he’s better. At some point numbers have to justify the argument or else the argument is irrelevant.

On 5/15/2022 at 12:17 PM, Jeezla said:

It's his most recent season....And his efficiency went up with more volume.

That was fun destroying your argument.

No. All you were good at was flinging around insults to try and make yourself seem like an Internet tough guy.

The reality is the same as before he increased production and his efficiency, cool. Look up the law of diminishing returns because your argument clearly hasn’t shown you’ve mastered the concept.

Your logic has been weighed, it’s been measured, and it’s been found wanting. Thanks.

Edited May 27, 2022 by diamondbull424

[Matts4313]

Just skimmed through this and it went exactly how I thought. 

For some unknown reason to me, Eagles fans think Goedart is a HOF caliber TE. He is a very good player. He is not elite. Ive watched, I dunno, 15-20 games of his. I have never, ever, not once, thought "that guy is making an enormous impact". Some of that might be QB play, but not really. His only two QBs have been check down queens who love the TE. Is he a very good blocker? Yeah, he is. And as someone who for years said Witten was elite because he (literally) could block anyone in the league - - I respect the argument. Its a solid point. But its not like Eagles fans are actually watching Waller to see how good his blocking is. 

 

At the end of the day, DG is a great player for them. But he really isnt anywhere near as good as they say he is. 

Edited May 25, 2022 by Matts4313

[AZ_Eaglesfan]

3 minutes ago, Matts4313 said:

Just skimmed through this and it went exactly how I thought. 

For some unknown reason to me, Eagles fans think Goedart is a HOF caliber TE. He is a very good player. He is not elite. Ive watched, I dunno, 15-20 games of his. I have never, ever, not once, thought "that guy is making an enormous impact". Some of that might be QB play, but not really. His only two QBs have been check down queens who love the TE. Is he a very good blocker? Yeah, he is. And as someone who for years said Witten was elite because he (literally) could block anyone in the league - - I respect the argument. Its a solid point. But its not like Eagles fans are actually watching Waller to see how good his blocking is. 

 

At the end of the day, DG is a great player for them. But he really isnt anywhere near as good as they say he is. 

Evidence of the bold orrrrrr? I think most fans would say Goedert is on the border of being elite. Absolutely has elite talent but needs consistency to take the jump. He is dominant with the ball in his hands and consistently has fantastic efficiency ratings even though he has been a backup the majority of his career thus far(only became a true full time starter half way through last season). His main issue is concentration. He had some really painful drops last season that if eliminated would absolutely have put him firmly in the elite TE category. 

This idea that the QBs he has played with have made him look better than he is just shows you haven't actually watched him play. Goedert was never the starter when Wentz was in town and was regularly relegated to inline blocking. He was great when given chances, but he was rarely given them compared to other TE's. Hurts did not focus getting the ball to Goedert even though he had games where he looked unstoppable. Goedert's best game was a game that Hurts literally didn't play in. He ranked 17th in Targets among TE's and still finished top 5 in yards in 2021. Compare that to Mark Andrews who had double his targets..... I wonder why his numbers look a bit pedestrian in comparison?

Goedert is absolutely on the edge of completely taking over as a top tier TE. In terms of talent he is already there, he just needs to be given a few more opportunities and needs to capitalize on those opportunities a bit better. I'm not willing to die on the hill of Goedert > Waller, but I would hardly scoff at the idea either. 

[Matts4313]

54 minutes ago, AZ_Eaglesfan said:

Evidence of the bold orrrrrr? I think most fans would say Goedert is on the border of being elite. Absolutely has elite talent but needs consistency to take the jump. He is dominant with the ball in his hands and consistently has fantastic efficiency ratings even though he has been a backup the majority of his career thus far(only became a true full time starter half way through last season). His main issue is concentration. He had some really painful drops last season that if eliminated would absolutely have put him firmly in the elite TE category. 

This idea that the QBs he has played with have made him look better than he is just shows you haven't actually watched him play. Goedert was never the starter when Wentz was in town and was regularly relegated to inline blocking. He was great when given chances, but he was rarely given them compared to other TE's. Hurts did not focus getting the ball to Goedert even though he had games where he looked unstoppable. Goedert's best game was a game that Hurts literally didn't play in. He ranked 17th in Targets among TE's and still finished top 5 in yards in 2021. Compare that to Mark Andrews who had double his targets..... I wonder why his numbers look a bit pedestrian in comparison?

Goedert is absolutely on the edge of completely taking over as a top tier TE. In terms of talent he is already there, he just needs to be given a few more opportunities and needs to capitalize on those opportunities a bit better. I'm not willing to die on the hill of Goedert > Waller, but I would hardly scoff at the idea either. 

Wrong. 

Try again.

Even going back to 2019 Goedart had over 750 snaps. Over 500 in 2018. He wasnt a "starter". He was on the field for the majority of plays. He has "started" 40 of 57 games in 4 years, btw.

If your argument is that he was forced to be a blocker, my counter is that its because the coaches didnt think he was an elite passing weapon. Its not like you guys were forced to use him that way. Nor were you a team that is like the titans were you had to run non stop.

Edited May 25, 2022 by Matts4313

[AZ_Eaglesfan]

4 minutes ago, Matts4313 said:

Wrong. 

Try again.

Even going back to 2019 Goedart had over 600 snaps. Over 500 in 2018. He wasnt a "starter". He was on the field for the majority of plays.

So you just quote stats with no context and pray that it helps your argument? Are you aware of the rate the Eagles ran 12 personnel under Doug Pederson? Have you calculated how many of the snaps Goedert actually ran routes on those snaps as opposed to being an inline blocker?

But ya. I am wrong. Let's dodge an entire post with a meaningless stat that doesn't actually say anything.

Edited May 25, 2022 by AZ_Eaglesfan

[Matts4313]

6 minutes ago, AZ_Eaglesfan said:

So you just quote stats with no context and pray that it helps your argument? Are you aware of the rate the Eagles ran 12 personnel under Doug Pederson? Have you calculated how many of the snaps Goedert actually ran routes on those snaps as opposed to being an inline blocker?

But ya. I am wrong. Let's dodge an entire post with a meaningless stat that doesn't actually say anything.

I edited my post, just fyi. 

Also, he ran more routes in 2020 than 2021. So again, wrong. Even in 2019 (25th in the NFL- as the "#2") his routes ran were pretty high.

Edited May 25, 2022 by Matts4313

[AZ_Eaglesfan]

16 minutes ago, Matts4313 said:

I edited my post, just fyi. 

Also, he ran more routes in 2020 than 2021. So again, wrong. Even in 2019 his routes ran were pretty high.

Source?

Find it very hard to believe he ran more routes in a season where he played in 4 less games even if the Eagles ran the ball more than any other team in 2021. He was a starter for about half the 2020 season after Ertz was hurt, but I would still be surprised.

And you can spin a narrative however you want, I frankly don't care. I am looking at the reality of the situation. The Eagles thought so lowly of him as a pass catcher that they traded Zach Ertz and gave him a top 5 TE contract. Goedert when starting has played with: 2020 Wentz who was a complete disaster.... and Jalen Hurts who was not capable of running a true passing attack in 2021. 

Yes, he has issues and is not currently elite, but this argument that you are trying to frame him as some average talent whose numbers reflect his on field play is 100% completely incorrect.

Edited May 25, 2022 by AZ_Eaglesfan

[Matts4313]

23 minutes ago, AZ_Eaglesfan said:

Source?

Find it very hard to believe he ran more routes in a season where he played in 4 less games even if the Eagles ran the ball more than any other team in 2021. He was a starter for about half the 2020 season after Ertz was hurt, but I would still be surprised.

And you can spin a narrative however you want, I frankly don't care. I am looking at the reality of the situation. The Eagles thought so lowly of him as a pass catcher that they traded Zach Ertz and gave him a top 5 TE contract. Goedert when starting has played with: 2020 Wentz who was a complete disaster.... and Jalen Hurts who was not capable of running a true passing attack in 2021. 

Yes, he has issues and is not currently elite, but this argument that you are trying to frame him as some average talent whose numbers reflect his on field play is 100% completely incorrect.

https://www.playerprofiler.com/nfl/dallas-goedert/

[Soggust]

13 minutes ago, Matts4313 said:

https://www.playerprofiler.com/nfl/dallas-goedert/

 

[AZ_Eaglesfan]

22 minutes ago, Matts4313 said:

https://www.playerprofiler.com/nfl/dallas-goedert/

Still completely fail to see what your point is here. He has never run enough routes to qualify in the top 10 for routes run, and only in one season was he above to 20 in routes run.... and yet he still was top 5 in yards last season? So exactly what is your point here? Is Goedert not a fringe top 5 TE? Is comparing him to Darren Waller complete blasphemy? Should he be producing at a much higher rate?

Can we get something of substance other than "well Eagles fans overrate him".

[Matts4313]

6 minutes ago, AZ_Eaglesfan said:

Is comparing him to Darren Waller complete blasphemy? Should he be producing at a much higher rate?

Yes

6 minutes ago, AZ_Eaglesfan said:

Can we get something of substance other than "well Eagles fans overrate him".

You do. Again - I want emphasize - I think DG is a good player. A very good player. And possibly even an elite blocker. I havent watched yalls all 22, so I cant make that judgement call. But what I do know, is he not a scary player to go up against. 

Like when we played the chiefs this year, my biggest thought was "how the hell do we stop both Kelce and Hill?!?". When we play you guys, my thought is "Keep hurts in the pocket and we will win easily". DG plays no factor, because he is not elite, scary, or a true weapon. 

Edited May 25, 2022 by Matts4313

[Soggust]

14 minutes ago, AZ_Eaglesfan said:

Still completely fail to see what your point is here. He has never run enough routes to qualify in the top 10 for routes run, and only in one season was he above to 20 in routes run.... and yet he still was top 5 in yards last season? So exactly what is your point here? Is Goedert not a fringe top 5 TE? Is comparing him to Darren Waller complete blasphemy? Should he be producing at a much higher rate?

Can we get something of substance other than "well Eagles fans overrate him".

I think you are underselling Waller moreso than overrating Goedert.

My tiers look something like -

T1) Kelce

T2) Kittle
T2) Waller
T2) Andrews

T3) Pitts (might have him up or down a tier depending on day so split the diff)

T4) Goedert
T4) Schultz
T4) Gronk

I think you can make a case for as high as #6 and as low as #8.

But I also think the gap between T4 and the Knox, Ertz, Gesicki, Henry, etc. Tier is smaller than the gap between the Goedert tier and the tier above.

Edited May 25, 2022 by Soggust

[Matts4313]

Let me rephrase this way - I think of DG probably how you guys think of DLaw on our team. Good player. Going to make some plays. Glad he is on your team. But you arent scared of him. Youve probably never looked at our team and thought "Lawrence is the x-factor, he could kill us today". Because Demarcus isnt that caliber of player. Neither is Goedart. 

[AZ_Eaglesfan]

1 minute ago, Soggust said:

I think you are underselling Waller moreso than overrating Goedert.

My tiers look something like -

T1) Kelce

T2) Kittle
T2) Waller
T2) Andrews

T3) Pitts (might have him up or down a tier depending on day so split the diff)

T4) Goedert
T4) Schultz
T4) Gronk

I think you can make a case for as high as #5 and as low as #8.

So basically he is exactly what MOST people claim he is. A borderline top tier player whose talent flashes but he has yet to put it together. He could take the leap if he starts producing at a higher clip... but he hasn't yet.

I really don't see what we arguing about here then.

Fwiw I would have Goedert ranked at 6th as well. I don't think you "tiers" are accurate but it is close enough.