Cavaliers Thread: We Somehow Both Don't and Do Suck

[LETSGOBROWNIES]

1 hour ago, sdrawkcab321 said:

Well aside from the whole passing and decision making thing

Who tf was he supposed to be passing to?  The corpse of AI and one legged Amare?

[roger murdock]

I think Carmelo isn't just one of the most overrated NBA players of all time, but one of the most overrated athletes of all time, any team sport. 

He played 19 years in the NBA. How many memorable and  great moments did he have? Wade and LeBron had more memorable and historic NBA moments in their first three seasons than Carmelo did in 19 seasons. 

He was unreal in college, he was great in the Olympics. Those are the first things you think of when you think of his accomplishments.

But NBA career? The first thing I think of is that meme play where he was laying on the floor for 2 possessions and his teammates didnt even call a timeout and played 5v4 without him for a minute while hes laying in the key. He had a few really high scoring games (some with zero assists). He didnt have any big playoff moments in his entire career. 

He had an incredible scoring bag, with lots of moves from all levels. Despite that he was never a particularly efficient scorer. Average from 3, slightly above average from the FT line, didnt get to the line much, took way too many difficult twos on mediocre to bad %. He was a non-factor in transition. His numbers took a huge plummet in the playoffs. 

He was a bad defender, below average rebounder, and bad passer. He wouldnt set picks. He wasn't active off ball except getting into a position to allow him to ISO. He wouldnt cut or run off screens. He was a go-to scorer who offered little to nothing in the passing game and held the ball a long time hunting for his shots. If he played in a smarter era that valued efficiency and passing more, I'm curious how he'd have done. It would have either forced him to be smarter or minimized his role. There's no place for a slow, mediocre efficiency level, one dimensional player. 

 

He's basically Demar Derozan with better PR and a prettier game.He's a losing player because he offered no supporting skills to help anyone else do their job more effectively. 

 

He won 3 playoff series in his entire career. He had two seasons where he finished on NBA second team and finished top 10 in MVP voting. 

 

I personally didnt think he deserved to be on the NBA 75 team and wouldnt have had him in my top 175. 

[LETSGOBROWNIES]

1 hour ago, roger murdock said:

I think Carmelo isn't just one of the most overrated NBA players of all time, but one of the most overrated athletes of all time, any team sport. 

He played 19 years in the NBA. How many memorable and  great moments did he have? Wade and LeBron had more memorable and historic NBA moments in their first three seasons than Carmelo did in 19 seasons. 

He was unreal in college, he was great in the Olympics. Those are the first things you think of when you think of his accomplishments.

But NBA career? The first thing I think of is that meme play where he was laying on the floor for 2 possessions and his teammates didnt even call a timeout and played 5v4 without him for a minute while hes laying in the key. He had a few really high scoring games (some with zero assists). He didnt have any big playoff moments in his entire career. 

He had an incredible scoring bag, with lots of moves from all levels. Despite that he was never a particularly efficient scorer. Average from 3, slightly above average from the FT line, didnt get to the line much, took way too many difficult twos on mediocre to bad %. He was a non-factor in transition. His numbers took a huge plummet in the playoffs. 

He was a bad defender, below average rebounder, and bad passer. He wouldnt set picks. He wasn't active off ball except getting into a position to allow him to ISO. He wouldnt cut or run off screens. He was a go-to scorer who offered little to nothing in the passing game and held the ball a long time hunting for his shots. If he played in a smarter era that valued efficiency and passing more, I'm curious how he'd have done. It would have either forced him to be smarter or minimized his role. There's no place for a slow, mediocre efficiency level, one dimensional player. 

 

He's basically Demar Derozan with better PR and a prettier game.He's a losing player because he offered no supporting skills to help anyone else do their job more effectively. 

 

He won 3 playoff series in his entire career. He had two seasons where he finished on NBA second team and finished top 10 in MVP voting. 

 

I personally didnt think he deserved to be on the NBA 75 team and wouldnt have had him in my top 175. 

What teams was he on that woefully underperformed?  Who were the teammates that he had that would be comparable to what other stars with rings had during his career?
 

I won’t argue the defense and inefficiency, you’re not wrong, but he was never on a team that had much in the way of expectations unless you think he should have been dragging turd rosters to the finals like LeBron did.  But he was never LeBron.

As far as the NBA 75 team, idk man, he’s 9th all time in scoring.  Single digits on that list and you’re in.

[candyman93]

Melos biggest flaw was marrying Lala and letting her torpedo his career by moving to New York.

Edited May 23, 2023 by candyman93

[LETSGOBROWNIES]

Just now, candyman93 said:

Melos biggest flaw was marrying Layla and letting her torpedo his career by moving to New York.

Specifically by forcing the trade and not just signing as a FA.

[sdrawkcab321]

2 hours ago, LETSGOBROWNIES said:

Who tf was he supposed to be passing to?  The corpse of AI and one legged Amare?

You don’t have to just pass to superstars..

[roger murdock]

2 hours ago, LETSGOBROWNIES said:

What teams was he on that woefully underperformed?  Who were the teammates that he had that would be comparable to what other stars with rings had during his career?
 

I won’t argue the defense and inefficiency, you’re not wrong, but he was never on a team that had much in the way of expectations unless you think he should have been dragging turd rosters to the finals like LeBron did.  But he was never LeBron.

As far as the NBA 75 team, idk man, he’s 9th all time in scoring.  Single digits on that list and you’re in.

Stars with rings? If every playoff series win in his entire career all happened in the post season he still wouldnt have a ring. Literally 3 playoff series wins in his entire career. Its not fair to compare him to stars with rings, because every star with a ring is several tiers better than him. 

Did his teams woefully underperform? I dont know. I think the 08-10 Nuggets were stacked teams but he wanted to go to New York. I think a LeBron or a Kobe or a  Wade or a Dirk could have won a ring there or gotten to the finals at least, but winning a series there for Carmelo is at expectations. The early 2010s Knicks teams were decent as well, but not as good as the Nuggets team he wanted to leave. 

I think the only teams in NBA history with a 'best player' on Carmelo's level that won a title is the '04 Pistons, and I'd rather have Billups or Big Ben than Carmelo anyway, but thats the only close call.

 

 

Again, I don't view Carmelo as much of an under-acheiver because I dont view him as a particularly great player in the first place. Blaming a Derozan type player for not winning titles doesnt seem very fair when they aren't  that level of player. 

 

I think there's 15-20 players in the league right now that are comfortably better than Carmelo at his peak. 

[BetterCallSaul]

Definitely agree that Melo was supremely overrated. Dude was a bucket getting machine, but was a below average defender and facilitator. He was Paul Pierce with more size in his short prime. He was good for like 4-5 years and then became a Kobe-esque black hole on offense…with less efficiency.

I always liked Melo theoretically, but I kinda agree with roger. Yeah he didn’t have the greatest talent around him, but guys that play like Melo don’t make anyone better. He didn’t ever play championship basketball IMO. 

[BetterCallSaul]

7 hours ago, roger murdock said:

I think there's 15-20 players in the league right now that are comfortably better than Carmelo at his peak. 

This I don’t agree with. Can you name them? Melo at his peak was a definite all-star and a potential all nba team dude. I think mentions of some great legacy for him are crazy, but he wasn’t straight up doo doo—especially in his short prime. 

[candyman93]

Missed this gem

Also, the Celtics are satisfied with last year. They’re done tonight. Just listen to what Smart said.

 

Edited May 23, 2023 by candyman93

[LETSGOBROWNIES]

I think guys like LeBron and how the league has changed have skewed how older players are viewed.  Not everyone needed to be a facilitator 20 years ago.  Players had more defined roles and teams were fine with that.  That’s not to say there weren’t guys who could do both, many could, it just wasn’t viewed as it is now.

When Melo came up it was completely fine to be a wing scorer who didn’t need to facilitate at a high level.  Guys like KD, Kobe, Carter, Pierce, etc were all shoot first guys who didn’t/don’t do much to facilitate.  

[MWil23]

58 minutes ago, LETSGOBROWNIES said:

I think guys like LeBron and how the league has changed have skewed how older players are viewed.  Not everyone needed to be a facilitator 20 years ago.  Players had more defined roles and teams were fine with that.  That’s not to say there weren’t guys who could do both, many could, it just wasn’t viewed as it is now.

When Melo came up it was completely fine to be a wing scorer who didn’t need to facilitate at a high level.  Guys like KD, Kobe, Carter, Pierce, etc were all shoot first guys who didn’t/don’t do much to facilitate.  

https://www.deseret.com/2019/2/21/20666425/nba-rules-have-adapted-over-the-years-to-make-the-game-more-fun-for-players-fans

Significant NBA rule changes over the years

1951 — Lane widened from 6 feet to 12 feet

1954 — 24-second clock is introduced

1955-1964 — No rules changes

1964 — Lane widened from 12 to 18 feet

1972 — No foul shots are attempted, except shooting fouls, until fifth team foul

of period

1977 — Force-out rule is eliminated

1978 — Number of referees increased from two to three

1979 — 3-point line established 22 feet in the corners extending to 23 feet, 9 inches at top of key

1979 — Referees reduced from three to two

1981 — “3 to make 2” and “2 to make 1” free throw rules eliminated

1984 — The 2-3-2 Finals format adopted, changing from 2-2-1-1-1 format

1988 — Number of referees permanently increased from two to three

1992 — Shot clock is reset only when ball hits the rim (previously it was reset if ball hit either the rim or backboard)

1994 — Three shots awarded for foul on 3-point attempt

1994 — 3-point line shortened to a uniform 22 feet around the basket

1997 — 3-point line lengthened to original 23 feet, 9 inches, except in the corners where the distance remained at 22 feet

1997 — A “no-charge” area established with a half circle with a 4-foot radius measured from middle of goal

2000 — Timeouts increased from six to seven, fourth-period timeouts increased from three to four

2001 — Illegal defense eliminated and zone defense allowed. Defensive 3-second rule prohibits defensive player from being in lane without guarding offensive player

2001 — The time to advance ball past midcourt reduced from 10 seconds to 8 seconds

2002 — Instant replay implemented for review of certain last-second plays

2007-15 — Expansion of instant replay every year except 2010-11

2017 — Timeouts reduced from nine to seven per team per game with no more than two after the 3-minute mark of the fourth quarter

2018 — Shot clock reset to 14 after an offensive rebound rather than 24

Per the above bolded, underlined, italicized, since 1997 getting to the rim is actually infinitely easier with the no charge area, defensive 3 second rule, a faster paced game (8 seconds instead of 10 in getting the ball across and offensive rebound to 14 instead of 24), which creates more spacing concepts.

The post Jordan 1997-mid 2000s stars were going to be more ball/rim dominant with a mid range game due to those rule changes and evolution.

And yeah, I'm nostalgic, but I'd have loved to have seen young/prime MJ play in an era where you can't hand check, camp out a big in the lane, and can't take a charge within the 4 foot zone.

[BetterCallSaul]

3 hours ago, LETSGOBROWNIES said:

When Melo came up it was completely fine to be a wing scorer who didn’t need to facilitate at a high level.  Guys like KD, Kobe, Carter, Pierce, etc were all shoot first guys who didn’t/don’t do much to facilitate.  

You're not wrong, but that's also why I don't consider those guys to be in the uber elite categories. Kobe was the closest guy, but he is not on LeBron's level IMO. Kobe was an elite defensive player, whereas the other guys listed were not. It allowed him to be more than just a wing scorer.

[LETSGOBROWNIES]

35 minutes ago, BetterCallSaul said:

You're not wrong, but that's also why I don't consider those guys to be in the uber elite categories. Kobe was the closest guy, but he is not on LeBron's level IMO. Kobe was an elite defensive player, whereas the other guys listed were not. It allowed him to be more than just a wing scorer.

I don’t think anyone is putting him in that top tier of players.  

[roger murdock]

15 hours ago, BetterCallSaul said:

This I don’t agree with. Can you name them? Melo at his peak was a definite all-star and a potential all nba team dude. I think mentions of some great legacy for him are crazy, but he wasn’t straight up doo doo—especially in his short prime. 

Several Tiers Better:

Jokic, Giannis, Curry, Embiid, Tatum, Doncic, LeBron, Davis, Butler, Lilliard, Durant, Booker, SGA, Leonard

 

High Level Scorers who do a hell of a lot more other things than Carmelo ever did:

Mitchell, Harden, George, Siakem, Morant, Fox, Sabonis, Trae, Edwards,  Brunson, Zion, Ingram

 

Similar Level:

Towns, Beal, LeVine, Brown, Garland, Adebayo, Lauri, Haliburton, Derozan, Irving

 

Thats 14 players unquestionably much, much better, 11 players who offer similar scoring with a hell of a lot more supporting skills, and 10 guys who either score at a high level without supporting/winning skills, or who offer dynamic playmaking or defense etc.

 

So 25 guys who I'd cleary value over Carmelo's high volume, mediocre efficiency level scoring and nothing else, and a few others I'd prefer because I think they have more team focused/winning games.