The Good, the Bad, the Kansas City Zebras

[NYRaider]

9 minutes ago, NickButera said:

I don't see our team having the fortitude to make a 5-8 week comeback and put us back into contention. After a loss like this, after several other bad losses...I think it's going to eat at them and McDaniels doesn't have the leadership qualities to forge this team ahead with positive mental fortitude. Hate to be the Debbie downer, but at this point it's far more reasonable that we play mediocre the rest of the way after a start like.this

Shame too, McDaniels seems to be getting better, things are coming together, we played toe to toe with the best team in the league. But it's too little too late imo.

We have a pretty easy 6 game stretch after the bye week, so I'm slightly optimistic but it's definitely an uphill battle from here on out. 

[ronjon1990]

9 minutes ago, NYRaider said:

NFL teams valued Rich so highly that he got a special teams job. Why didn't anyone hire that great leader of men as their head coach?

In Rich's defense....

I think he wanted to stay with us and was 9 points away from going 9-3, lead us to the playoffs amidst turmoil, and nearly coached us to a playoff win. 

I don't know for sure he wanted any HC job that would almost certainly include a rebuild. 

The NFCW was closed to new HCs. The NFCN had a rebuild in Chicago and Minny was always going to go for a OC wiz following Zimmer, the NFCE had New York and Daboll was a solid candidate in his own right, in the NFCS the Saints were promoting from within as were the Bucs, in the AFCW Denver as going the seamet route as Minnesota and hired Hackett 100% expecting Rodgers (we've both talked about that), the AFCN was closed, the AFCS had Houston and Jacksonville both looking like rebuilds, and the AFCW only had Miami and Mike McDaniel was a hot name. 

Rich's other options were always going to be limited and he arguably deserved to retain his job based on the performance. I can see him not being set from the heart on a lesser job and the better ones were simply looking almost exclusively at OC wizards. 

I honestly believe he wanted to be the Raiders HC or be on a winning staff and that's that. I don't blame him really, and I think he gets the job if not for JMD coming along and Davis getting a boner for the Patriots way. 

 

[NYRaider]

Just now, ronjon1990 said:

In Rich's defense....

I think he wanted to stay with us and was 9 points away from going 9-3, lead us to the playoffs amidst turmoil, and nearly coached us to a playoff win. 

I don't know for sure he wanted any HC job that would almost certainly include a rebuild. 

The NFCW was closed to new HCs. The NFCN had a rebuild in Chicago and Minny was always going to go for a OC wiz following Zimmer, the NFCE had New York and Daboll was a solid candidate in his own right, in the NFCS the Saints were promoting from within as were the Bucs, in the AFCW Denver as going the seamet route as Minnesota and hired Hackett 100% expecting Rodgers (we've both talked about that), the AFCN was closed, the AFCS had Houston and Jacksonville both looking like rebuilds, and the AFCW only had Miami and Mike McDaniel was a hot name. 

Rich's other options were always going to be limited and he arguably deserved to retain his job based on the performance. I can see him not being set from the heart on a lesser job and the better ones were simply looking almost exclusively at OC wizards. 

I honestly believe he wanted to be the Raiders HC or be on a winning staff and that's that. I don't blame him really, and I think he gets the job if not for JMD coming along and Davis getting a boner for the Patriots way. 

There wasn't any GM in the NFL that we could've hired that keeps Rich outside of Mayock. Rich was a good raw-raw coach but he wasn't a great X's and O's guy. I mean do you remember what happened when we went to KC with Rich as the coach? We got embarrassed. 

[drfrey13]

2 minutes ago, Jeremy408 said:

Well I mean there's hyperbole there. Antonio Brown in theory would've been considered a big deal signing(as it was at the time) had he not lost his mind). The way Arnette and rugs turned out might've actually encouraged him more.

The problem though is that we're talking about hypothetical.

On paper, McDaniels is someone who has proven to fail as a head coach in his first stint losing his last eight games before being fired by the Broncos. Rich on the other hand took a franchise that was crashing and burning to its first playoff appearance in 4 years despite having no healthy weapons on offense or good play callers. That's not hypothetical that's based on factual information. 

Can McDaniels turn it around sure he can. But again even that's hypothetical it's not based on what actually happened so far. Whereas Rich failing this year is also hypothetical because it's not based on what actually happened.

I think Rich's downfall was his ability to build a team of coaches around him.  No saying I like McDaniels more but I do not think I would prefer Olson as a play caller over McDaniels even though he has done a poor job so far.  I take Rich all day if he could bring in some good coordinators.  

Speaking of coordinators that Giants defense looks better so far without Graham this year.  Really wish I could go back to the 2019 draft and switch out our Ferrell pick for Dexter Lawrence if I was going to take a Clemson DL.

[ronjon1990]

Just now, NYRaider said:

There wasn't any GM in the NFL that we could've hired that keeps Rich outside of Mayock. Rich was a good raw-raw coach but he wasn't a great X's and O's guy. I mean do you remember what happened when we went to KC with Rich as the coach? We got embarrassed. 

We've been Kansas City's dungeon sub for the better part of more coaching staffs than just Rich. 

Whether any other GM would've retained him, who knows. They likely wouldn't have. But I don't hold that against Rich. 

Mayock should never have been hired in the first place. We should have had a real GM. If we had one that wasn't a wet paper bag, we wouldn't have had to hire a new  though, and given that Rich was already the next man up, a different GM that was being retained very well may have given him the full time gig. 

[Jeremy408]

13 minutes ago, NYRaider said:

You're arguing we should've kept Mayock who was literally the worst GM in the NFL because he might have been able to make a trade that our new GM did pull off after he failed to make any big splash moves running the team for YEARS. 

So wait for clarification, are you saying that the reason why we should've got McDaniels is because he comes Ziegler right?

[ronjon1990]

4 minutes ago, drfrey13 said:

I think Rich's downfall was his ability to build a team of coaches around him.  No saying I like McDaniels more but I do not think I would prefer Olson as a play caller over McDaniels even though he has done a poor job so far.  I take Rich all day if he could bring in some good coordinators.  

Speaking of coordinators that Giants defense looks better so far without Graham this year.  Really wish I could go back to the 2019 draft and switch out our Ferrell pick for Dexter Lawrence if I was going to take a Clemson DL.

I was damn near pilloried for saying it elsewhere, but just look at his track record as a positional coach and DC. His units routinely get worse under him and get better once he's gone. 

He was a nepotism hire for his Patriots background. 

 

[NYRaider]

2 minutes ago, ronjon1990 said:

We've been Kansas City's dungeon sub for the better part of more coaching staffs than just Rich. 

Whether any other GM would've retained him, who knows. They likely wouldn't have. But I don't hold that against Rich. 

Mayock should never have been hired in the first place. We should have had a real GM. If we had one that wasn't a wet paper bag, we wouldn't have had to hire a new  though, and given that Rich was already the next man up, a different GM that was being retained very well may have given him the full time gig. 

Just shocking to me that there's a great head coaching candidate who could only get a special teams gig elsewhere. NFL teams didn't see him last year?

[Jeremy408]

11 minutes ago, drfrey13 said:

I think Rich's downfall was his ability to build a team of coaches around him.  No saying I like McDaniels more but I do not think I would prefer Olson as a play caller over McDaniels even though he has done a poor job so far.  I take Rich all day if he could bring in some good coordinators.  

Speaking of coordinators that Giants defense looks better so far without Graham this year.  Really wish I could go back to the 2019 draft and switch out our Ferrell pick for Dexter Lawrence if I was going to take a Clemson DL.

I'm actually in the same boat as you. I don't disagree with this at all. 

Edited October 11, 2022 by Jeremy408

[NYRaider]

Just now, Jeremy408 said:

So wait for clarification, are you saying that the reason why we should've got McDaniels is because he comes Ziegler right?

No I didn't want McDaniels either, I just wasn't a fan of keeping Rich/Mayock. I wanted Jim Harbaugh. 

[ronjon1990]

Just now, NYRaider said:

Just shocking to me that there's a great head coaching candidate who could only get a special teams gig elsewhere. NFL teams didn't see him last year?

I literally just pointed out the relative lack of openings last year and how many of them were destined to go a different direction no matter what. 

If Josh McDaniels was such a good hire, why didn't someone else take him? 

Nobody is saying Rich was the greatest candidate to ever grace the NFL, so I don't know why you're trying to make it as if they are. 

[ronjon1990]

4 minutes ago, NYRaider said:

No I didn't want McDaniels either, I just wasn't a fan of keeping Rich/Mayock. I wanted Jim Harbaugh. 

Mmmmk, see, Jim isn't leaving Michigan. 

But no man doesn't have his price. 

If Jim is such a great other worldly candidate, why hasn't an NFL team just given him a blank check and said "take me, daddy!"? 

See how that works? 

 

I would've loved Jim Harbaugh. I don't need to downplay Rich's performance to make it known I would've preferred Harbaugh over him if given the choice.

Edited October 11, 2022 by ronjon1990

[NYRaider]

2 minutes ago, ronjon1990 said:

I literally just pointed out the relative lack of openings last year and how many of them were destined to go a different direction no matter what. 

If Josh McDaniels was such a good hire, why didn't someone else take him? 

Nobody is saying Rich was the greatest candidate to ever grace the NFL, so I don't know why you're trying to make it as if they are. 

The Colts and other teams have tried to pry McDaniels away from the Patriots for years. He was the highest paid coordinator in the league for a reason, lol. 

[NYRaider]

1 minute ago, ronjon1990 said:

Mmmmk, see, Jim isn't leaving Michigan. 

But no man doesn't have his price. 

If Jim is such a great other worldly candidate, why hasn't an NFL team just given him a blank check and said "take me, daddy!"? 

See how that works? 

Should've just ran it back with Papa Rich, just gotta hope we played a bunch of backup QBs again so we can win games like we did last year with him.

[Jeremy408]

4 minutes ago, NYRaider said:

No I didn't want McDaniels either, I just wasn't a fan of keeping Rich/Mayock. I wanted Jim Harbaugh. 

If we had kept Rich/Mayock  and we had the same record right now I would be completely fine with that. Because then we would know that didn't work. Hey it wouldn't be hypothetical that it wouldn't  gonna work; it would be that it actually didn't work. that's really all I'm saying.

what I was not a fan of was getting rid of what it was actually working for what hypothetically would work and didn't actually work in the past. because it actually isn't working now either.