Mox Posted February 8 Share Posted February 8 Just now, NYRaider said: Do you value individual scoring numbers over championships, MVPs, Finals MVPs, and DPOYs? Have I mentioned points at all regarding the comparison? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NYRaider Posted February 8 Share Posted February 8 1 minute ago, Bullet Club said: I'm not holding it against him as a player. I'm saying he doesn't get added career credit for hypothetical play when he willingly chose to retire. He doesn't but I think you have to acknowledge it was probably the only reason he didn't break (or at least get close) the record. Especially when you account for the fact he's the league's all time leader in PPG for the regular season and the playoffs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NYRaider Posted February 8 Share Posted February 8 Just now, Bullet Club said: Have I mentioned points at all regarding the comparison? What other talking points are there to debate LeBron is better than MJ other than total points scored and total games played? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mox Posted February 8 Share Posted February 8 Just now, redsoxsuck05 said: We're just gonna go in circles over whether your idea of GOAT is the best peak, the best legacy, the best longevity, and how you weight all those things. I was very specific in what I was referring to. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mox Posted February 8 Share Posted February 8 Just now, NYRaider said: What other talking points are there to debate LeBron is better than MJ other than total points scored and total games played? Being an elite player for like 50% longer in a harder era? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spartica4Real Posted February 8 Share Posted February 8 12 minutes ago, NYRaider said: Other than total career points scored, what else does LeBron have on MJ? MJ has more championships, MVPs, Finals MVPs, scoring titles, a DPOY, and made almost twice as many All-Defensive teams despite playing less than LeBron. LeBron is the all time scoring leader but only has one scoring title, MJ did it 10 times. I'm not going to argue either way, but your last sentence perfectly sums it up. In spite of MJ getting the scoring title 10 different times, LeBron is still the all time leader. He's had insane longevity. Made the Finals 8 straight years, 9 of 10. Easily superior playmaker so it's interesting that you neglected to mention that. Rings argument falls hollow for me because then why isn't it Bill Russell? We're judging them off the merits of their play, not their team, So the MVPs, DPOY, and all-defensive teams are all valid but the 6-0 vs 4-6 doesn't mean anything. MJ never had an entire stint wasted by an ineptly run franchise like LeBron's first Cavs stint so the rings argument isn't even entirely fair anyways, even ignoring that basketball is a team game. And making the Finals is better than not making it so losing the FInals 6 times isn't as bad as MJ stans make it sound. Both can be argued as the GOAT and that's facts. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NYRaider Posted February 8 Share Posted February 8 (edited) 23 minutes ago, Spartica4Real said: I'm not going to argue either way, but your last sentence perfectly sums it up. In spite of MJ getting the scoring title 10 different times, LeBron is still the all time leader. He's had insane longevity. Made the Finals 8 straight years, 9 of 10. Easily superior playmaker so it's interesting that you neglected to mention that. Rings argument falls hollow for me because then why isn't it Bill Russell? We're judging them off the merits of their play, not their team, So the MVPs, DPOY, and all-defensive teams are all valid but the 6-0 vs 4-6 doesn't mean anything. MJ never had an entire stint wasted by an ineptly run franchise like LeBron's first Cavs stint so the rings argument isn't even entirely fair anyways, even ignoring that basketball is a team game. And making the Finals is better than not making it so losing the FInals 6 times isn't as bad as MJ stans make it sound. Both can be argued as the GOAT and that's facts. Jordan led the league in total points scored every season he was with the Bulls with the only exceptions being his second year (got hurt) and the year he came back late after he retired (17 games). He should've had won the scoring title in 11/11 healthy seasons in Chicago but Bird/King had higher PPG due to missing games. Do you know how unreal it is to go for over a decade straight scoring more points than any player in the league? If he wouldn't have essentially missed three seasons he'd have the volume numbers over LeBron as well. You also failed to mention that defense is important as well, Jordan was 1st team All-Defense in 9/11 healthy seasons. So he was the best scorer in the league and also one of the 5 best defensive players in the league his entire career. MJ also never had to switch teams to chase rings with other elite players either. Jordan's resume stumps LeBron in almost every category other than longevity. Edited February 8 by NYRaider Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NYRaider Posted February 8 Share Posted February 8 16 minutes ago, Bullet Club said: Being an elite player for like 50% longer in a harder era? But not at as dominant as Jordan though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mox Posted February 8 Share Posted February 8 1 minute ago, NYRaider said: But not at as dominant as Jordan though. While I agree, it's certainly debatable. LeBron is probably better at everything except scoring. In a vacuum, Jordan probably gives you a better shot at winning a title in a given year. In that same vacuum, LeBron gives you a chance at more titles overall. You have to understand that I'm looking at the quality of the player not the accolades. Jordan's DPOY is a joke. He was a neutral defender that year with pretty steal and block numbers. 2016-2018 LeBron didn't win any MVP's but was still undeniably a better player than three of Jordan's MVP years (88,96,98). Jordan simply happened to come around during the era with mass expansion, declining participation rates, and before the international player boom so he had the easiest path to dominance and titles. I'm a big Jordan guy. I think LeBron is a ******. I'm not even saying Jordan isn't the GOAT depending on what you incorporate into that. But LeBron's career has provided more value than Jordan's did. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NYRaider Posted February 8 Share Posted February 8 Just now, Bullet Club said: While I agree, it's certainly debatable. LeBron is probably better at everything except scoring. In a vacuum, Jordan probably gives you a better shot at winning a title in a given year. In that same vacuum, LeBron gives you a chance at more titles overall. You have to understand that I'm looking at the quality of the player not the accolades. Jordan's DPOY is a joke. He was a neutral defender that year with pretty steal and block numbers. 2016-2018 LeBron didn't win any MVP's but was still undeniably a better player than three of Jordan's MVP years (88,96,98). Jordan simply happened to come around during the era with mass expansion, declining participation rates, and before the international player boom so he had the easiest path to dominance and titles. I'm a big Jordan guy. I think LeBron is a ******. I'm not even saying Jordan isn't the GOAT depending on what you incorporate into that. But LeBron's career has provided more value than Jordan's did. How can you say he was a better defender than Jordan and what are you using to classify him as a neutral defender? Would you consider Drew Brees the second best QB of all time? Because based on the logic you're using for LeBron he would fall under that category. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kip Smithers Posted February 8 Share Posted February 8 The Jordan-Lebron debate, seriously guys? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mox Posted February 8 Share Posted February 8 Just now, NYRaider said: How can you say he was a better defender than Jordan and what are you using to classify him as a neutral defender? Would you consider Drew Brees the second best QB of all time? Because based on the logic you're using for LeBron he would fall under that category. LeBron was a more versatile and better defense anchor than Jordan was. That's not really disputed amongst hardcore fans of the game. Jordan was probably a little better on-ball but LeBron's off-ball D and versatility made him more impactful on that end at his best. I'm not saying Jordan was always a neutral defender. I'm saying he was in his DPOY season. At his best, he was excellent defensively but like LeBron tended to coast as he got older. Except back then reputation and box stats got you All D awards whereas nowadays people earn those based on analytics. I'd have to go find the data set but he was a slight positive overall that year based on defensive impact. He was outside the top 50 players for sure. No, Drew Brees has nothing to do with it and that's not the logic I'm using. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mox Posted February 8 Share Posted February 8 4 minutes ago, Kip Smithers said: The Jordan-Lebron debate, seriously guys? It's not even a debate. I'm making pretty reasonable statements and the responses have little to do with anything I'm actually saying. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
11sanchez11 Posted February 8 Author Share Posted February 8 On 1/8/2023 at 8:03 PM, Spartica4Real said: Suns are done for. I think they'll be good again when healthy but they're too injured in the middle of too brutal of a stretch of schedule. There's no way they escape play-in territory without playing like the 64 win team of last year, which I don't think is in them anymore. CP3 is too cooked. cp3 comes back and they win 9 of their last 11, gonna be the 3 seed at worst. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spartica4Real Posted February 8 Share Posted February 8 (edited) 6 minutes ago, 11sanchez11 said: cp3 comes back and they win 9 of their last 11, gonna be the 3 seed at worst. 9-2 in their last 11, I said they weren't escaping play-in territory unless they played like the 64 win team of last year and they listened 😂 If by at worst you mean at best I agree. Actually as of right now I've got them finishing 3rd, one game ahead of the Pels/Clips and two games ahead of the Kings cause the West is all jumbled Edited February 8 by Spartica4Real Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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