Lions trade TE T.J. Hockenson to Vikings for 2nd, swap of picks

[nagahide13]

 

Here is the post where you're directly talking about making the comparison because of RAS.

Dude, you're just bad faith all around.

Edited December 31, 2022 by nagahide13

[Forge]

4 hours ago, vike daddy said:

we like Hockenson. a lot.

 

sorry to disrupt your conversation of whatever the hell you're talking about.

Don't worry about it. They are all wrong anyway. 

Everyone knows that the correct answer when it comes to RAS is Mike Gesicki, it doesn't even matter what the question is

[Soko]

20 hours ago, nagahide13 said:

RAS is combine scores and pro day. You brought up the comparison because they had similar RAS scores. Like I said, I don't think you understand the conversation. What you do understand you're being wildly disingenuous about.

So now you’re telling me what it is I meant when I asked the question? Lol. No one said “when they were prospects” or “at the combine”. I didn’t say it. The other guy who initially used RAS first didn’t say it. 

When he said “Hock is an elite athlete”, is there anything in that sentence or post that remotely implies that what he actually meant was, “Hock is an elite athlete….out of the combine”? And then, not only that, but when I asked about Hill/Pierce, what I actually meant (without even knowing it) was “are Pierce and Hill in the same tier of athleticism…out of the combine?”. JFC, lol.

I don’t want the semantics to drive away from the point that using RAS scores don’t always translate to movements on the field, Hock’s not an elite athlete, Hill smokes Pierce in the athleticism category, and no one used production in the argument (like you mistakenly accused people of doing).

Edited January 1, 2023 by Yin-Yang

[nagahide13]

You were talking about RAS. That is literally the whole issue here. This is ludicrous.

On 12/28/2022 at 11:08 AM, Yin-Yang said:

DeVante Parker has a better RAS than Tyreek Hill, OBJ, Justin Jefferson, Amari Cooper, Brandin Cooks, Tavon Austin, and AJ Brown. Guess he’s an elite athlete and more athletic than all of them?

Deebo Samuel’s one of the worst in the league in RAS. 

RAS is a number score from track events. You’re kidding yourself if you think those three guys move the same in the football field. Kittle and Kelce are among the smoothest runners in and out of cuts at the TE position. Waller and Pitts are legit 4.4 guys that are sky walkers. Hockensen’s not them, socks/shorts workouts from before the draft don’t change that. 

[Nzd07]

Just lock it up.

[Soko]

12 minutes ago, nagahide13 said:

You were talking about RAS. That is literally the whole issue here. This is ludicrous.

…after RAS was used to justify Hock. I criticized using RAS to do so. Simple, right?

[nagahide13]

10 minutes ago, Yin-Yang said:

…after RAS was used to justify Hock. I criticized using RAS to do so. Simple, right?

And then you brought up the comparison between Hill and Pierce. And then you denied it was because of trying to discredit RAS. And now you're saying you're saying you were trying to discredit RAS. Yes, it was all pretty simple.

[Soko]

6 minutes ago, nagahide13 said:

And then you brought up the comparison between Hill and Pierce. And then you denied it was because of trying to discredit RAS. And now you're saying you're saying you were trying to discredit RAS. Yes, it was all pretty simple.

Wrong again. I said I wasn’t calling RAS “useless”. There’s a difference between criticizing using it in some form or fashion (such as to justify two athletes who move completely different on the field vs what they did 5+ years ago in track events), and calling it completely useless (you made that up). But similar to how you thought I was using production (never did), and that all of this was over the combine (it wasn’t) - that went over your head.

[nagahide13]

What is the point of comparing a player in his prime to a player just entering the NFL using only numbers taken from the combine? Are we supposed to operate under the assumption that Tyreek Hill isn't bigger, faster or stronger than he was when he was 22? Why would  you use the number from when the player was 22, then deny that the comparison was about him at that age? Do you think that Hill's RAS score reflects his current ability/athleticism? @battle2heavenbrought up Hock's RAS in order to suggest that Hock has the framework to one day be an elite TE. How does comparing a rookie to a player in his prime using rookie numbers mean anything in that conversation?

Talking about Tyreek Hill's RAS is talking about him at his pro-day. The numbers were taken from his pro-day. Saying that Hill and Pierce have a similar RAS is saying that they had similar measurements at the combine/pro-day. It is not saying that they are currently comparable athletes, though if Pierce follows the same trajectory as Hill he will be. I think everyone agrees that this is doubtful. Does having a similar RAS mean you are a comparable athlete when tested? Yes. Of course.

Edited January 2, 2023 by nagahide13

[nagahide13]

Tossing in one post on topic before I continue getting trashed

Hockenson has elite potential but is clearly not living up to expectations. He's young and has all of the tools with which to really turn it on moving forward... But he hasn't done it yet and I don't really expect that he will. Coming out of the draft he was supposed to be a high level blocker. This might actually be the area in which he has struggled the most. He is bad.

He's really going to fit in in Minny with the feast and famine offense. He disappears for long periods.

He is very athletic but doesn't have much outside of that. Detroit's passing game is better without him... TE's have been a far bigger threat in the redzone. He's feels pretty replaceable and I'm glad we got a 2nd for him. I'm glad Minny likes him though! For them he's probably worth the 2nd.

Edited January 2, 2023 by nagahide13

[iknowcool]

6 hours ago, nagahide13 said:

Talking about Tyreek Hill's RAS is talking about him at his pro-day. The numbers were taken from his pro-day. Saying that Hill and Pierce have a similar RAS is saying that they had similar measurements at the combine/pro-day. It is not saying that they are currently comparable athletes, though if Pierce follows the same trajectory as Hill he will be. I think everyone agrees that this is doubtful. Does having a similar RAS mean you are a comparable athlete when tested? Yes. Of course.

Even as a rookie, Hill's football speed, agility, and acceleration absolutely blow Pierce's out of the water.  I don't know what the testing numbers say, but watching them on the football field, it isn't even close and that is no slight on Pierce.  I gotta agree with the others, I don't see an argument for them being similar athletes.  And it isn't like Hill wasn't a monster as a rookie. He looked like he might be one of the GOAT returners ever and was a menace when he got touches on offense.  Is he a better athlete now than he was then?  Quite possibly w/ NFL training, but he was still pretty clearly the fastest man in the NFL (and one of the fastest in history) as a rookie.  

Pierce is a good athlete but in the grand scheme of things nothing special in the football world.  

[Superduperman]

Anyone still interested in the topic of this thread?

Hockenson has been good with the Vikings, so they win by getting a weapon who seems to work well with Cousins

Meanwhile, Brock Wright has emerged as the Lions #1 TE, he's a better blocker than Hock for sure and an acceptable pass catcher, also Shane Zylstra has caught several TDs and James Mitchell is developing. The Lions have a franchise record for TD catches by the TE position overall.

Win win trade for both teams imo.

[vikesfan89]

The downside for the Vikings is that the pick they get back won't be nearly as good as expected with Detroit winning lately. 

Hock is a little inconsistent but I think the team is happy with the trade

[nagahide13]

6 hours ago, iknowcool said:

Even as a rookie, Hill's football speed, agility, and acceleration absolutely blow Pierce's out of the water.  I don't know what the testing numbers say, but watching them on the football field, it isn't even close and that is no slight on Pierce.  I gotta agree with the others, I don't see an argument for them being similar athletes.  And it isn't like Hill wasn't a monster as a rookie. He looked like he might be one of the GOAT returners ever and was a menace when he got touches on offense.  Is he a better athlete now than he was then?  Quite possibly w/ NFL training, but he was still pretty clearly the fastest man in the NFL (and one of the fastest in history) as a rookie.  

Pierce is a good athlete but in the grand scheme of things nothing special in the football world.  

I agree with all of this except the last sentence. Pierce is an incredible athlete but I don't think he's going to develop into anything special, so my disagreement isn't much. Hill got knocked for his size and poor bench. I would guess most people don't think of size as athleticism but the metric does.

Edited January 2, 2023 by nagahide13

[vikingsrule]

On 1/2/2023 at 1:21 AM, nagahide13 said:

Tossing in one post on topic before I continue getting trashed

Hockenson has elite potential but is clearly not living up to expectations. He's young and has all of the tools with which to really turn it on moving forward... But he hasn't done it yet and I don't really expect that he will. Coming out of the draft he was supposed to be a high level blocker. This might actually be the area in which he has struggled the most. He is bad.

He's really going to fit in in Minny with the feast and famine offense. He disappears for long periods.

He is very athletic but doesn't have much outside of that. Detroit's passing game is better without him... TE's have been a far bigger threat in the redzone. He's feels pretty replaceable and I'm glad we got a 2nd for him. I'm glad Minny likes him though! For them he's probably worth the 2nd.

Noticed a lot of this to be true. Just doesn’t have that clutch ability consistently. He has stretches of great play and stretches of drops. Still a good player just hope they can find fair compensation for him. TE isn’t an easy position to fill with a young player so at least they filled a need early.