Week 13 GT: Bears vs CheeSeheads

[Bigbear72]

1 hour ago, StLunatic88 said:

And my bet cashes

I knew your were going to go run to this, stop staring at measurements on a sheet and actually watch him in game action. Those are his numbers at his absolute PEAK when training for the draft process, that’s not who he is on every day.

He is above average at best for the guard position, that doesn’t mean “plus athlete”. Once again, Tevin Jenkins is a Plus Athlete for the Guard Position, Larry Borom absolutely is not. 

But isn't everyone's RAS numbers based off of players at their peak training for the draft process? Whether that translate to on field performance is a different issue all together. AZ stated that he was a plus athlete when comparing his physical traits with other guards. Being a plus athlete doesn't make you a good football player. These are two separate things.

[Sugashane]

1 hour ago, StLunatic88 said:

And my bet cashes

I knew your were going to go run to this, stop staring at measurements on a sheet and actually watch him in game action. Those are his numbers at his absolute PEAK when training for the draft process, that’s not who he is on every day.

He is above average at best for the guard position, that doesn’t mean “plus athlete”. Once again, Tevin Jenkins is a Plus Athlete for the Guard Position, Larry Borom absolutely is not. 

Starting to sound like JAF there. Lol

Shockingly, almost every prospect is at their "peak" when doing the testing. So almost all would have a level of regression. It doesn't just happen when you want it to.  You're not telling me you think it's common for other guys to just walk in cold to their job interview there, are you?

[StLunatic88]

34 minutes ago, Sugashane said:

Starting to sound like JAF there. Lol

Shockingly, almost every prospect is at their "peak" when doing the testing. So almost all would have a level of regression. It doesn't just happen when you want it to.  You're not telling me you think it's common for other guys to just walk in cold to their job interview there, are you?

They are comparing him from every Lineman since 1987!!!

The lineman preparation has only ramped up like the rest of the positions (CB/WR) in like the last decade. The Big Uglies were called that for a reason, they did not prepare for the "athletic" drills, it was just lineman drills and the Bench Press. Its why guys like Orlando Pace were such anomalies back then.

The athletic profile of Lineman, Offensive Lineman specifically, is so drastically different than it was even in 2010, and its a radical change than it was over 3 DECADES ago. Even if I were to say 2015, Seven years ago, is the start of a comparable pool of players to what todays NFL is looking for in lineman as far as "athleticism" goes (which its not, but I'll be generous) thats still only 1/4 of the entire pool that they are comparing to.

So sure, if this was 1995, Larry Borom would be jumping off the charts with athleticism, Barry Switzer would be drooling to draft him. But its 2022, hes average at best, and I can see that with my own eyes on the field, not running calcs compared to guys about to get their AARP cards

[AZBearsFan]

7 hours ago, Bigbear72 said:

But isn't everyone's RAS numbers based off of players at their peak training for the draft process? Whether that translate to on field performance is a different issue all together. AZ stated that he was a plus athlete when comparing his physical traits with other guards. Being a plus athlete doesn't make you a good football player. These are two separate things.

I did? That doesn’t sound like something I said (wrote). 

[Bigbear72]

37 minutes ago, AZBearsFan said:

I did? That doesn’t sound like something I said (wrote). 

Sorry, that was Suga.

[Sugashane]

12 hours ago, StLunatic88 said:

They are comparing him from every Lineman since 1987!!!

The lineman preparation has only ramped up like the rest of the positions (CB/WR) in like the last decade. The Big Uglies were called that for a reason, they did not prepare for the "athletic" drills, it was just lineman drills and the Bench Press. Its why guys like Orlando Pace were such anomalies back then.

The athletic profile of Lineman, Offensive Lineman specifically, is so drastically different than it was even in 2010, and its a radical change than it was over 3 DECADES ago. Even if I were to say 2015, Seven years ago, is the start of a comparable pool of players to what todays NFL is looking for in lineman as far as "athleticism" goes (which its not, but I'll be generous) thats still only 1/4 of the entire pool that they are comparing to.

So sure, if this was 1995, Larry Borom would be jumping off the charts with athleticism, Barry Switzer would be drooling to draft him. But its 2022, hes average at best, and I can see that with my own eyes on the field, not running calcs compared to guys about to get their AARP cards

 

Ok so lets unpack this, because that post has numerous points to contest.

Until the late 90s these tests, the 40 in particular were hand-timed. They switched to a partial electronic clocking system and times got more consistent, and there were less outrageous times, unless anyone believes Bo Jackson actually ran a 4.12 40. He didn't. I don’t know if they stuck with the fully timed system but even having one end laser timed makes a difference and countered the faster times that are common with hand-times. Also look at that weight OL were, in the 80s they were around what? 280? In the 90s it got up to maybe 300lbs on average. Now it is maybe 310 or so. So between the weight gain, the better timing systems, and better training for these makes up a lot of ground with the hand-timed variance. So I would say a lot of that is negligible.

But if you want a sample closer to today, lets use the OGs from the 2020 and compare Borom to them. I’ll go in order of their draft.

 

1.       Robert Hunt – DNP

2.       Damien Lewis – 7.99

3.       Jonah Jackson – 6.5

4.       Tyre Phillips – 3.51

5.       John Simpson – 8.55

6.       Solomon Kindley – DNP

7.       Logan Stenberg – 6.12

8.       Kevin Dotson – DNP

9.       Ben Bredeson – DNP

10.   Jack Driscoll – 8.83

11.   Danny Pinter – 9.64

12.   Shane Lemieux – 6.64

13.   Netane Muti – DNP

14.   Jon Runyan Jr . – 8.49

15.   Simon Stepanick – DNP

16.   Arlington Hambright – 9.65

17.   Tremayne Anchrum – 4.63

 

Now remember, Borom had an 8.65, so out of the 12 participants only 3 scored better than he did. So he was in the top 25% of his draft class for OGs with these metrics. To me, that means a plus athlete for the position. ALSO he weighed at least 15 pounds more than the three that scored better than him.

All competed in the same Combine, all had the same equipment to be tested on, all have strength coaches through college and had mostly equal time to prepare for the Combine, etc etc. Like I said, he is not an average athlete but is also not a world beater for the position, but clearly he is NOT average at the spot in regardless to his athleticism.

[StLunatic88]

1 hour ago, Sugashane said:

But if you want a sample closer to today, lets use the OGs from the 2020 and compare Borom to them. I’ll go in order of their draft.

First off you are now comparing a Tackle prospect (and tackle only in His mind) to the guards. Just because you think it’s so easy for these guys to switch doesn’t mean you can just lump him in with that group  

But even if you want to use this prospect pool, he still isn’t Top 25%. You listed 17 prospects, but 6 of them there is no score for, so you don’t get to use them no matter what you would expect them to be. So he is 4th out of 12 prospects now (Borom included) so he’s barely in that Top 1/3 of this group. And he is also with in 2% on this scale of two more prospects, and less than 7% of another. You can’t sit here and honestly tell me that you are able too tell when a player is 7% more athletic than another much less 2%.

Sure he isn’t scoring in the 4s, but he is lumped in with the largest group of prospects of this list; 5/12 fall between 8.9-7.9 and that’s not even looking into other prospects that are now or could be (especially by your criteria) Guards. 

If you think being grouped with most other prospects means a “plus” for athleticism then we have obviously different definitions of Plus.