I think it's time to start including Joe Burrow as a Top 3 NFL QB.

[AFlaccoSeagulls]

On 12/9/2022 at 12:56 PM, Bullet Club said:

Went 3-1 and instead of 5th in the NFL in passer rating he'd be 7th. 

 

11 hours ago, Bullet Club said:

Literally none of this is correct. Quit while you're behind.

oh yeah? You're using the Bengals' record with Chase being out as a supporting argument for why Burrow is good. Tell me what I'm missing here.

[AngusMcFife]

13 hours ago, Yin-Yang said:

If you’re factoring in as many things as possible, why are you not factoring in a bad offensive line and a bad play caller/HC? Why are the weapons the only point of contention? All of the top performing QBs of this year have either one high end weapons or multiple very good options (Mahomes, Allen, Tua, Hurts, Herbert, Brady, Cousins, Dak, Lamar), and almost all of them also have better offensive lines. 

If the argument absolutely hinges on proving a negative, then it’s a weak argument. 

The Bengals made huge investments in the OL, they started out the season slow but by no means are they a bad unit. They've gotten much better the more they've played together. Burrow holds the ball very long and takes a lot of sacks. 

And how would you go about proving they have a bad play caller/HC? He was hired explicitly as an offensive mind from the McVay coaching tree. I don't see play calling as being a detriment to Burrow at all.  

[AngusMcFife]

13 hours ago, Yin-Yang said:

If you’re factoring in as many things as possible, why are you not factoring in a bad offensive line and a bad play caller/HC?

Zach Taylor takes over a terrible team, goes:

2-14
4-11-1, Burrow injured
10-7, makes Super Bowl
8-4, TBD

Explain to me why he is a bad HC. 

13 hours ago, Yin-Yang said:

If the argument absolutely hinges on proving a negative, then it’s a weak argument. 

Go ahead a prove a negative, then. 

[Mox]

9 minutes ago, AFlaccoSeagulls said:

 

oh yeah? You're using the Bengals' record with Chase being out as a supporting argument for why Burrow is good. Tell me what I'm missing here.

lol

You're missing the part you intentionally omitted the first time around because you can't make your silly non-point with it in there, that being the fact that Burrow actually played well. You're reaching way too hard dude.

[AFlaccoSeagulls]

14 minutes ago, Bullet Club said:

lol

You're missing the part you intentionally omitted the first time around because you can't make your silly non-point with it in there, that being the fact that Burrow actually played well. You're reaching way too hard dude.

my entire argument is that QB wins mean nothing.

[Soko]

2 hours ago, AngusMcFife said:

The Bengals made huge investments in the OL, they started out the season slow but by no means are they a bad unit. They've gotten much better the more they've played together. Burrow holds the ball very long and takes a lot of sacks. 

He holds the ball because the offense has zero complexity to it and the line isn’t all that good. Burrow’s got 2.3 seconds in the pocket, that’s tied for 20th, behind Mahomes, Carr, Cousins, Herbert, Geno, Rodgers, Allen, Jackson, and Dak. The Bengals are ranked 29th in pass block win rate. They’ve improved from last season/early this season, but they’re not very good.

2 hours ago, AngusMcFife said:

And how would you go about proving they have a bad play caller/HC? He was hired explicitly as an offensive mind from the McVay coaching tree. I don't see play calling as being a detriment to Burrow at all.  

So…you haven’t watched the Bengals then. 

The Bengals offense consists of long developing passes, followed by RB dump passes, and wide zone handoffs/pitch plays. Under center? Probably a run, because they hardly ever pass out of that look (which is why the run block win rate is top 10 in the league while the running games’ numbers are bottom 10). They’re hilariously easy to defend, which is why they absolutely struggle vs a crappy DC like Woods who will run two high all day. They live off big plays to Chase and occasionally Higgins, when those aren’t hitting, the offense is a husk. The offense, when those simple aspects aren’t working, live and die by Burrow going off script and making magic. He’s good, so it still works at times, but that’s in spite of the playcalling, not because of it.

1 hour ago, AngusMcFife said:

Zach Taylor takes over a terrible team, goes:

2-14
4-11-1, Burrow injured
10-7, makes Super Bowl
8-4, TBD

Explain to me why he is a bad HC. 

Gary Kubiak and Bruce Arians won SBs. The team’s talented, Taylor’s a pedestrian play caller and is awful situationally. The whole “play the hot hand” thing is the exact opposite with Taylor. When Mixon and power is working, he gets to the goal line and does what? TE screens and flips to backup WRs. When the run game’s being shut down (which is often, because they often make it obvious when they’re running it), Taylor will feed Mixon to an absolute fault (and then put the backup in on crucial downs). The offense is absolutely stacked and Anarumo has the defense playing well, Taylor on the other hand is still trying to workout what works vs cover 2. 

1 hour ago, AngusMcFife said:

Go ahead a prove a negative, then. 

You’re using a hypothetical and that is almost the sole point you’ve been attempting to make. It’s a bad argument, especially since it’s not being applied laterally. It makes no sense. It’s natural to sort of imagine what guys would be like in neutral settings and all that (which you aren’t even doing, you’re only stripping Burrow of his weapons lol), but that shouldn’t be the crux. There’s no substance, just fun hypotheticals.

Edited December 11, 2022 by Yin-Yang

[AngusMcFife]

2 hours ago, Yin-Yang said:

He holds the ball because the offense has zero complexity to it and the line isn’t all that good. Burrow’s got 2.3 seconds in the pocket, that’s tied for 20th, behind Mahomes, Carr, Cousins, Herbert, Geno, Rodgers, Allen, Jackson, and Dak. The Bengals are ranked 29th in pass block win rate. They’ve improved from last season/early this season, but they’re not very good.

So…you haven’t watched the Bengals then. 

The Bengals offense consists of long developing passes, followed by RB dump passes, and wide zone handoffs/pitch plays. Under center? Probably a run, because they hardly ever pass out of that look (which is why the run block win rate is top 10 in the league while the running games’ numbers are bottom 10). They’re hilariously easy to defend, which is why they absolutely struggle vs a crappy DC like Woods who will run two high all day. They live off big plays to Chase and occasionally Higgins, when those aren’t hitting, the offense is a husk. The offense, when those simple aspects aren’t working, live and die by Burrow going off script and making magic. He’s good, so it still works at times, but that’s in spite of the playcalling, not because of it.

Gary Kubiak and Bruce Arians won SBs. The team’s talented, Taylor’s a pedestrian play caller and is awful situationally. The whole “play the hot hand” thing is the exact opposite with Taylor. When Mixon and power is working, he gets to the goal line and does what? TE screens and flips to backup WRs. When the run game’s being shut down (which is often, because they often make it obvious when they’re running it), Taylor will feed Mixon to an absolute fault (and then put the backup in on crucial downs). The offense is absolutely stacked and Anarumo has the defense playing well, Taylor on the other hand is still trying to workout what works vs cover 2. 

You’re using a hypothetical and that is almost the sole point you’ve been attempting to make. It’s a bad argument, especially since it’s not being applied laterally. It makes no sense. It’s natural to sort of imagine what guys would be like in neutral settings and all that (which you aren’t even doing, you’re only stripping Burrow of his weapons lol), but that shouldn’t be the crux. There’s no substance, just fun hypotheticals.

You're lying to yourself if you think you have any capacity to gauge the "complexity" of an NFL offense. 

You are criticizing a guy who worked his way up from the bottom rungs of college ball to the pinnacle of the coaching profession. If you were in a film room with Zach Taylor you would be completely embarrassed by your ignorance. The things you think you are solving are problems that Taylor learned how to solve 15 years ago. 

You think if you were in a film room with Zach Taylor, he would be impressed with your diagnosis of the offense? He'd be like, "wow Yin-Yang, I never thought of that before. You're a genius!" Every single criticism you have he would have a response to specifically why they are doing things. You don't work your way up to NFL HC without being an incredibly hard worker and being an absolute master of Xs and Os.  

I'm all for criticizing coaches who clearly can't cut it. But for you to think you are so much smarter than Zach Taylor is delusional. Like, what have you done? 

Cut and paste this rant for all the Ravens fans who are furious with Greg Roman. The amount of arrogance of some posters thinking they are so much smarter than people who have worked their way up from the bottom rungs to the top is just so stupid. 

[Soko]

1 hour ago, AngusMcFife said:

You're lying to yourself if you think you have any capacity to gauge the "complexity" of an NFL offense. 

You are criticizing a guy who worked his way up from the bottom rungs of college ball to the pinnacle of the coaching profession. If you were in a film room with Zach Taylor you would be completely embarrassed by your ignorance. The things you think you are solving are problems that Taylor learned how to solve 15 years ago. 

You think if you were in a film room with Zach Taylor, he would be impressed with your diagnosis of the offense? He'd be like, "wow Yin-Yang, I never thought of that before. You're a genius!" Every single criticism you have he would have a response to specifically why they are doing things. You don't work your way up to NFL HC without being an incredibly hard worker and being an absolute master of Xs and Os.  

I'm all for criticizing coaches who clearly can't cut it. But for you to think you are so much smarter than Zach Taylor is delusional. Like, what have you done? 

Cut and paste this rant for all the Ravens fans who are furious with Greg Roman. The amount of arrogance of some posters thinking they are so much smarter than people who have worked their way up from the bottom rungs to the top is just so stupid. 

I was wholly unaware Zac Taylor had family on this forum! 

This has got to be the thirstiest appeal to authority I think I’ve ever seen, lol. Should we not be allowed to criticize Matt Patricia because he’s a professional coach? Or Baker Mayfield because he’s a professional QB? Even Belichick has obvious flaws and he’s a GOAT coach - who’s allowed to point those flaws out? Only HOF coaches? LOL. 

Instead of responding to anything I’ve actually said, you, once again, take the imaginary fantasy hypothetical route - “but but but he’d have an answer as to why he’s kneecapping his incredibly talented team!!!”. Try bringing something other than fallacies and hypotheticals, Zac Jr.

Edited December 11, 2022 by Yin-Yang

[AngusMcFife]

25 minutes ago, Yin-Yang said:

I was wholly unaware Zac Taylor had family on this forum! 

This has got to be the thirstiest appeal to authority I think I’ve ever seen, lol. Should we not be allowed to criticize Matt Patricia because he’s a professional coach? Or Baker Mayfield because he’s a professional QB? Even Belichick has obvious flaws and he’s a GOAT coach - who’s allowed to point those flaws out? Only HOF coaches? LOL. 

Instead of responding to anything I’ve actually said, you, once again, take the imaginary fantasy hypothetical route - “but but but he’d have an answer as to why he’s kneecapping his incredibly talented team!!!”. Try bringing something other than fallacies and hypotheticals, Zac Jr.

If a coach is obviously unsuccessful at his job, then obviously you can criticize him. 

Taylor has taken a crap franchise, improved every year, has the 5th ranked offense according to DVOA, and is "bad," "pedestrian" and "awful" according to you. 

I just find fan criticisms of successful coaches as if they are morons just laughable. As if they wouldn't have a rebuttal to every one of your novice observations. 

Quote

The whole “play the hot hand” thing is the exact opposite with Taylor. When Mixon and power is working, he gets to the goal line and does what? TE screens and flips to backup WRs. 

Your entire philosophy that if one type of play is working, NFL should just keep doing it over and over is caveman football from the 1950s. NFL defenses can adapt mid-series and take away what was previously working. 

Quote

The offense is absolutely stacked and Anarumo has the defense playing well, Taylor on the other hand is still trying to workout what works vs cover 2. 

The offense is ranked 5th (15%) and the defense is 11th (-4%) according to DVOA, so you aren't even capable of determining which unit is driving the team's success. 

Quote

They’re hilariously easy to defend

Again, how is a top-5 offense "easy to defend"? You make no sense and seem to not have any idea of what constitutes an effective offense in 2022. 

Quote

the offense has zero complexity 

Maybe he needs to run a "simple" offense because his QB isn't a fast enough processor to handle a "complex" one. 

See? I can criticize aspects of your weak argument, I don't need to rely on appeal to authority. 

[Dr A W Niloc]

On 12/9/2022 at 5:35 PM, AngusMcFife said:

If you put Burrow on an average team with average WRs, would he elevate them?

I assumed this was a rhetorical question.

Quote

I'm not sure about that.

  Apparently not!

[Soko]

2 hours ago, AngusMcFife said:

If a coach is obviously unsuccessful at his job, then obviously you can criticize him. 

Lol.

2 hours ago, AngusMcFife said:

Taylor has taken a crap franchise, improved every year, has the 5th ranked offense according to DVOA, and is "bad," "pedestrian" and "awful" according to you. 

Interesting how that just happens to to coincide with Burrow and his health, huh? Go figure. 

2 hours ago, AngusMcFife said:

I just find fan criticisms of successful coaches as if they are morons just laughable. As if they wouldn't have a rebuttal to every one of your novice observations. 
 

So there is this thing called “appeal to authority”. It’s a logical fallacy. In this case, it’s putting Taylor’s stature above criticism from…well, anyone here and I’m assuming anyone who’s not or was not a HC, because…he’s a “professional”. If this were literal rocket science, then sure, you’d probably be safe there, but it isn’t. 

Does that mean I’m a better HC than Zac Taylor? Does it mean if we sat together in a room, that I’d scheme him out the door? Does it mean I’m a better football mind than him? No. But that doesn’t mean he’s above obvious criticism. So far all you’ve said is that in fantasy land where he and I were in a room together, that he’d have an answer for everything. Both irrelevant and without substance. How about instead of fantasizing about Zac Taylor locked in a room with some internet guy, you respond to what I say and cut most of it out?

2 hours ago, AngusMcFife said:

Your entire philosophy that if one type of play is working, NFL should just keep doing it over and over is caveman football from the 1950s. NFL defenses can adapt mid-series and take away what was previously working. 

Ah, yes, of course - opposed to the modern NFL way of thinking…do what doesn’t work! LOL. I’m not talking about one specific play call. I’m talking about going completely away from your bread and butter at inopportune moments. It’s one of his most common criticisms.

So power is working, you get to first and goal, and you think after a failed TE screen pass (when, let’s be honest, the TE is probably the 5th best receiving option on that team) and a crappy attempt at flipping the ball to Chris Evans, that your da- I mean Zac Taylor deserves CREDIT? Not blame???

2 hours ago, AngusMcFife said:

The offense is ranked 5th (15%) and the defense is 11th (-4%) according to DVOA, so you aren't even capable of determining which unit is driving the team's success. 

And you’re not even capable of reading what I posted…I said the offense is stacked and the defense is playing well. Taylor found out how to play against a cover 2 somewhere around November, lol.

2 hours ago, AngusMcFife said:

Again, how is a top-5 offense "easy to defend"? You make no sense and seem to not have any idea of what constitutes an effective offense in 2022. 

I literally went through some ways how they’re easy to defend. You cut it from the quote and responded to none of it so far, lol. 

2 hours ago, AngusMcFife said:

Maybe he needs to run a "simple" offense because his QB isn't a fast enough processor to handle a "complex" one. 

See? I can criticize aspects of your weak argument, I don't need to rely on appeal to authority. 

I mean, no, you just cut out most of my post and continued with your shtick. “But but but their stats are good! But wins! But Zac’s my dad!” 

In what ways does Zac Taylor benefit this team (with scheme, playcalling, etc.), independent from the high level of talent on the offense? 

[AngusMcFife]

55 minutes ago, Yin-Yang said:

In what ways does Zac Taylor benefit this team (with scheme, playcalling, etc.), independent from the high level of talent on the offense? 

A fan will never know the intricacies of what the coach is doing and what is being delegated. All we can do is observe the results. And it is fairly evident that his team continues to improve year after year, and is currently a top 5 offense. Which makes him a "bad" HC, in your words.

He definitely benefits from a great WR corps and a pretty talented OL that has improved over the course of the season. The only question is whether Burrow is an elite QB being held back by Zach Taylor's idiocy, or whether Burrow is a top-10ish QB who is being overrated by some due to his great weapons. I think the latter is more likely, but ultimately we won't have the answer until the context changes (Zach Taylor fired, some weapons leave, etc.). 

Fans thinking they know playcalling better than NFL coaches, IMO, is just naive. 

[Soko]

10 hours ago, AngusMcFife said:

A fan will never know the intricacies of what the coach is doing and what is being delegated. All we can do is observe the results. And it is fairly evident that his team continues to improve year after year, and is currently a top 5 offense. Which makes him a "bad" HC, in your words.

He definitely benefits from a great WR corps and a pretty talented OL that has improved over the course of the season. The only question is whether Burrow is an elite QB being held back by Zach Taylor's idiocy, or whether Burrow is a top-10ish QB who is being overrated by some due to his great weapons. I think the latter is more likely, but ultimately we won't have the answer until the context changes (Zach Taylor fired, some weapons leave, etc.). 

Fans thinking they know playcalling better than NFL coaches, IMO, is just naive. 

Lol. You don’t have to “know the intricacies” to answer that question. Just like you don’t have to “know playcalling better than NFL coaches” to criticize or comment on something they’re doing. It’s called a logical fallacy for a reason.

I just got done having a short conversation with a Rams fan that was telling me how a lot of McVay’s scheme is centered around running many, many variations of plays around the same/very similar looks, with the same personnel. A staple for the NE McDaniels’ offenses were option routes that simply required the QB and the WR to know which route the WR was going to run, based on the defense only. The Manning offense in Denver was a metric ton of rub routes and QB checks. You don’t need to be “smarter than a HC” or “know the intricacies of the NFL” to know things like this. 

So, once again, what do you know that Zac Taylor does to make his offense what it is today, independent of the insanely talented players? If you hit me with more appeal to authority crap, I’m going to continue laughing and move on. 

Edited December 12, 2022 by Yin-Yang

[INbengalfan]

No Higgins.  No Boyd (except the one play he dislocated his finger).  No Hurst.

 

No problem, and against a team that he was 0-4 against previously.

Fun fact.  The top 3 Wrs have played in 6 games together, and only finished 4 of them together.

 

How has this topic devolved into a fan or two using every excuse to knock the guy down?  I get it, too many people rail on your QB.  Feel free to stick with the "don't crown him yet" schtick, but the last time a certain DC said it, we know what happened next.

 

[AngusMcFife]

1 hour ago, Yin-Yang said:

So, once again, what do you know that Zac Taylor does to make his offense what it is today, independent of the insanely talented players? 

This is a poorly phrased question. Revise grammar and resubmit.