The Lamar offseason talk thread

[DreamKid]

1 hour ago, SalvadorsDeli said:

Genuinely if the cost of giving us the best chance we've had at winning the Super Bowl for at least 5 years if not a decade is potentially losing Justin Madibueke, then sign me up. This team really is that close enough to being special that it's worth the risk.

I advocated for Madubuike as a 1st Round pick in that 20' draft, he was and is a Top 20 talent from the class. In no way do I want or hope for him to leave this team given his ascension, all that said- the only thing that matters in the NFL is that SB ring. If the cost of a championship is not being able to sign Buike who gives an F!!?? Look at the mass exodus that took place after we pulled down the Lombardi in 2012, while I'm sure all of us would've liked to have kept guys like Dannell Ellerbe- no one really remembers or cares because we won it all.

IMO We already sacrificed a ring by retaining Roman as long as we did. So anything that can help us pull down the championship this core deserved/deserves I'm down for. 

1 hour ago, SalvadorsDeli said:

The Eagles with Hurts are an even more direct example of why that kind of thinking is off base

This is kind of a misreading of the situation for me, I think the true lesson to pull away from that SB is the difference an elite playcaller/offensive mind can make.

Baltimore will not be able to assemble the WR talent the Eagles have, DeVonta Smith was a Top 10 pick and they stole an All-Pro WR in AJ Brown from an inept former GM. On the other hand you have the Chiefs who really only had an elite TE and role players at WR. I mean Mahomes had 182 yards passing....

The answer for a club like the Ravens lies in the middle, and can be reflected in their 2012 core. Boldin, Smith, Jones, Pitta, etc. Reasonably obtainable yet high end pieces capable of thriving under a good play caller and with a good QB. The modernized version of that core would include another plus option at WR and that's why the Ravens should still be in pursuit of more talent at the WR position. 

Maybe Todd Monken can't replicate the effects of an Andy Reid on an average core of weapons or Steichen with an elite set of weapons, but maybe he can replicate the effects with a good/great set of weapons. 🤷‍♂️What could it hurt?

2 hours ago, SalvadorsDeli said:

All that said, I don't expect us to be in hard for Hopkins. But if we did get him? It's just overthinking it to think that's anything other than a huge win. 

Yea, essentially the only spots on the team that don't have above average starters penciled in are WR2(If you consider OBJ a WR3 and Duve a WR4 as I do), LG1, and CB2. 

So why would adding someone like DeAndre Hopkins bum anyone out? lol

I'd take Hopkins any day, then throw in a 1st Round CB and let's ball. 

Worrying about how a DeAndre Hopkins addition might hurt your team's future finances is like worrying about how bringing another woman into the bedroom might hurt your GF's feelings in the future even if she's up for it in the present. As they say, "Life and contention windows are way too short".

[SalvadorsDeli]

7 hours ago, DreamKid said:

 This is kind of a misreading of the situation for me, I think the true lesson to pull away from that SB is the difference an elite playcaller/offensive mind can make.

Baltimore will not be able to assemble the WR talent the Eagles have, DeVonta Smith was a Top 10 pick and they stole an All-Pro WR in AJ Brown from an inept former GM. On the other hand you have the Chiefs who really only had an elite TE and role players at WR. I mean Mahomes had 182 yards passing....

The answer for a club like the Ravens lies in the middle, and can be reflected in their 2012 core. Boldin, Smith, Jones, Pitta, etc. Reasonably obtainable yet high end pieces capable of thriving under a good play caller and with a good QB. The modernized version of that core would include another plus option at WR and that's why the Ravens should still be in pursuit of more talent at the WR position. 

I don't disagree with that at all - Hopkins is amazing but at this stage of his career he's not AJ Brown, and who even knows with OBJ. My point was less that bringing in another WR would make us an Eagles-level weapons stable, and more just disagreeing with this notion that upgrading at WR has less marginal value when you're building around a mobile QB -- a guy like Hopkins I think would still be a level-raiser for us if we somehow managed to get him. If we were to somehow get him while still having the room to spend a high draft pick at corner, then we'd really be cooking. 

Edited April 21, 2023 by SalvadorsDeli

[AngusMcFife]

10 hours ago, SalvadorsDeli said:

To me this whole idea that you have to build so differently around Lamar has always been off base - if it's actually true then what people are saying is just that Lamar shouldn't be our QB. 

I think it is true, as evidenced by the fact that no other teams are interested in signing Lamar. If Lamar was a plug-and-play MVP QB, there would be a lot more league-wide interest in him. 

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And let's say Lamar did get crazy weapons and couldn't take advantage of it? That would be good to know too. It allows us to move on next year without any what-ifs. On his franchise tag year, it's the perfect prove-it situation for everyone involved. 

Last year a prove-it situation in the playoffs and Lamar didn't want to play because he wasn't 100%. So I'm not interested in challenging Lamar to prove his worth again. He's already shown what his priorities are. 

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All that said, I don't expect us to be in hard for Hopkins. But if we did get him? It's just overthinking it to think that's anything other than a huge win. 

 Adding a $19 million dollar salary for this year would be brutal, and would have a huge impact on the 24 cap. I just don't think it's smart roster building. 

[DreamKid]

27 minutes ago, SalvadorsDeli said:

and who even knows with OBJ.

This is something else that seems to be slipping by fans. The 'every returning starter is coming off an injury' thing has burned us so many times in recent years, that I'm actually stunned to see so many who were hysterical about adding WR talent now just go "We got OBJ, we're set"....

Bateman just started running again, who knows where Duve is at with the foot, and OBJ hasn't played meaningful football since the Rams SB.. where he tore his ACL. 

That's way too much uncertainty at the top of a position room for anyone to scoff at another meaningful addition. 

[Ray Reed]

9 hours ago, DreamKid said:

Worrying about how a DeAndre Hopkins addition might hurt your team's future finances is like worrying about how bringing another woman into the bedroom might hurt your GF's feelings in the future even if she's up for it in the present

[DreamKid]

4 minutes ago, Ray Reed said:

[AngusMcFife]

2 hours ago, DreamKid said:

This is something else that seems to be slipping by fans. The 'every returning starter is coming off an injury' thing has burned us so many times in recent years, that I'm actually stunned to see so many who were hysterical about adding WR talent now just go "We got OBJ, we're set"....

Bateman just started running again, who knows where Duve is at with the foot, and OBJ hasn't played meaningful football since the Rams SB.. where he tore his ACL. 

That's way too much uncertainty at the top of a position room for anyone to scoff at another meaningful addition. 

It's just a question of resource allocation. DL, CB, IOL all need to be addressed. Spending $37 million on two WRs when the QB is averse to making tight-window throws outside the numbers seems like a potential waste. Not to mention Hopkins will cost possibly a 3rd round pick and more.  

At a certain point we have to trust our 1st round WR, $18 million FA WR, Agholar, and Duv will form a decent corps. Trading for Hopkins means we are giving up on Bateman as a prospect.

[M.10.E]

4 minutes ago, AngusMcFife said:

when the QB is averse to making tight-window throws outside the numbers

This part is so weird to me. Every year week 1 he seems like he's improved in this aspect and delivers some great throws in tough spots but then just stops attempting them as the year goes on. In four week 1 games he has 13 TD passes.

[AngusMcFife]

3 hours ago, M.10.E said:

This part is so weird to me. Every year week 1 he seems like he's improved in this aspect and delivers some great throws in tough spots but then just stops attempting them as the year goes on. In four week 1 games he has 13 TD passes.

Lamar's mechanics have improved to the point where he CAN make those throws, he just doesn't attempt them very often. 

[diamondbull424]

On 4/20/2023 at 9:14 PM, DreamKid said:

Lamar supported one of his best friends and our most productive weapon leaving the team, all so Hollywood could try to land a max deal in a more pass friendly offense. That doesn't reek of a guy obsessing over loading up this team up with weapons. So the idea that Lamar has been put off by a lack of weapons in the past or that they are now demands = to the increase in pay he's seeking, doesn't ring true for me. 

The team needs more at WR and Lamar needs 'moves' that can be interpreted as concessions or gifts so when he inevitably doesn't get the money he wants he's able to save some pride- which is one of the key issues in these negotiations. So the pursuit of OBJ and potentially Hopkins, brings layered impact to the club.

This doesn’t make sense. He was actively frustrated when we traded Hollywood last season. Whether it came across as trolling or not, he was clearly in his feels.

But what else is he supposed to say publicly other than, “I support my friend”.

There were numerous reports of players being frustrated with the offense under Roman a year prior to us actually letting him go, that same offseason one of our top offensive playmakers (albeit inconsistent) and best friend to our QB, requests a trade. Yet we’re supposing that our QB had no issues with the offense nor voiced his displeasures? That doesn’t compute to me.

More realistically it makes sense that both he and his friend would’ve actively discussed their frustrations with Roman and publicly Lamar towed the line.

Yet now Lamar for the first time in his contractual stay has the power to make demands and if he signs long term this could be his only time to make those demands.

As @SalvadorsDeli has stated what difference does it make the inspiration of those demands if the end result equal having a stacked offense? If the front office can’t balance going all in as many other teams have proven can be done with minimal retooling detriments if some smartly, then perhaps our capologists need to be rethought.

Lastly I’m sure if we surround Lamar with a stack field of weapons, he’s going to be more inclined to sign and “give discounts” same as Burrow with his 3 weapons of note. Why take a discount so that money can go to our nickel corner and not your #2 or #3 WR?

[diamondbull424]

21 hours ago, DreamKid said:

I advocated for Madubuike as a 1st Round pick in that 20' draft, he was and is a Top 20 talent from the class. In no way do I want or hope for him to leave this team given his ascension, all that said- the only thing that matters in the NFL is that SB ring. If the cost of a championship is not being able to sign Buike who gives an F!!?? Look at the mass exodus that took place after we pulled down the Lombardi in 2012, while I'm sure all of us would've liked to have kept guys like Dannell Ellerbe- no one really remembers or cares because we won it all.

IMO We already sacrificed a ring by retaining Roman as long as we did. So anything that can help us pull down the championship this core deserved/deserves I'm down for.

Hopefully we can bring back Campbell for a championship run in the event the Falcons fall apart at the seams. Getting a ring for him was one of the things that would’ve been special.

[DreamKid]

3 hours ago, diamondbull424 said:

This doesn’t make sense. He was actively frustrated when we traded Hollywood last season. Whether it came across as trolling or not, he was clearly in his feels.

Hollywood had requested the trade the year prior and informed Lamar about it then, so he wasn't blindsided. Those messages he put out during the draft were explained as him being surprised that Marquise was actually at the draft in person. I believe it was clarified because Lamar didn't want people to think he was dissing Linderbaum. 

3 hours ago, diamondbull424 said:

Yet we’re supposing that our QB had no issues with the offense nor voiced his displeasures? That doesn’t compute to me.

I think Lamar had issues with aspects of the offense, like the inability to get the play off in time and things of that nature. Ultimately though, it was the offense he pulled down an MVP trophy in. It's not surprising to me that Hollywood found issues with his role within the system that Lamar did not. 

3 hours ago, diamondbull424 said:

Yet now Lamar for the first time in his contractual stay has the power to make demands and if he signs long term this could be his only time to make those demands.

Lamar was an MVP in his 2nd season, he's always had the power to enact any changes he wanted. At no point does Greg Roman win some power struggle against our star QB. If Lamar demanded we trade up for Ceedee Lamb in that 2020 draft, we'd have traded up for Lamb. He's always had influence, and it's been noted publicly when he's used it.

The idea that Lamar had secret and major problems with the offense, our WRs, and Greg Roman but never made an issue about it(or leaked the frustrations later) and was comfortable with his best friend/weapon leaving the team despite those problems... is not a premise I can buy into. Tom Brady wouldn't let Edelman walk, Rodgers wouldn't let Nelson walk, Hurts wouldn't let Brown walk, etc etc. If they felt the OC was truly a destructive force preventing the team from signing FA WRs, responsible for their friend/weapon wanting to leave the team, and in the end hurting their personal & club trajectory- they would speak/step up and deal with the issue. Lamar has just as much agency as those players and didn't do anything. 

If it was such a major sticking point and Lamar felt this was the only time he could demand WR talent, it doesn't make sense that he'd focus his energy on the likes of OBJ and Hopkins either. Both are 30+ with injury issues. If acquiring two aging name WRs was enough of a chip that it would get Lamar to back off his desire for Watson money or finally hammer out a deal- the Ravens would've done it a long time ago. 

OBJ and potentially Hopkins are convenient options who help our WR core and allow Lamar to present a front of "I didn't get played or back off my money, look who I had them acquire for me" which is great for a situation like this where public image and pride are key elements of the stalled negotiations. 

4 hours ago, diamondbull424 said:

Lastly I’m sure if we surround Lamar with a stack field of weapons, he’s going to be more inclined to sign and “give discounts” same as Burrow with his 3 weapons of note. Why take a discount so that money can go to our nickel corner and not your #2 or #3 WR?

I really like Lamar, but every part of me thinks he would actually be cool with all of our skill position rooms being totally nuked and empty going into the draft if it meant he could get the exact deal he wanted. He's always had the ability to take a discount extension and demand better weapons. It's not like the FO could accept that deal and subsequently betray him by not meeting those demands. He'd then just publicly flame the organization revealing our failed promise, burn the bridge, turn other players against us, and force his way out. He's always had that option.

It's about the money, and it's always been about the money. Which isn't ideal, but also isn't an unreasonable position for an NFL player. The assumption that Burrow would take a discount, is just that- an assumption. Hurts certainly didn't take one, Burrow hasn't taken one yet, and neither has Herbert. Lamar can be chastised for seeking guarantees that just aren't out there, and more formal negotiations involving an agent probably would've locked in a deal a year or two ago- but I don't consider him extra greedy for not taking a discount no one else really has. 

[diamondbull424]

2 hours ago, DreamKid said:

It's about the money, and it's always been about the money. Which isn't ideal, but also isn't an unreasonable position for an NFL player. The assumption that Burrow would take a discount, is just that- an assumption. Hurts certainly didn't take one, Burrow hasn't taken one yet, and neither has Herbert. Lamar can be chastised for seeking guarantees that just aren't out there, and more formal negotiations involving an agent probably would've locked in a deal a year or two ago- but I don't consider him extra greedy for not taking a discount no one else really has. 

The “Burrow discount” is a pointed reference, but taking less guaranteed when you’ve got a stacked WR core is an easy decision. If you have help, you’re more likely to fulfill your contract. Means less congested running for sure. It’s an easier decision for Hurts to take less guaranteed when he’s playing with a top 5-10 WR in Brown and one of the best collegiate WRs all time in Smith (who could still become a top 10 NFL talent), plus a top 5 TE talent. That’s an easy decision.

2 hours ago, DreamKid said:

I really like Lamar, but every part of me thinks he would actually be cool with all of our skill position rooms being totally nuked and empty going into the draft if it meant he could get the exact deal he wanted. He's always had the ability to take a discount extension and demand better weapons. It's not like the FO could accept that deal and subsequently betray him by not meeting those demands.

Lamar voiced his displeasure about the OL and the organization made the choice to address OL by being INCREDIBLY narrow to the promise made to Lamar. We invest in the OL but then let the WR position go micro thin because we refused to be aggressive and go for the player we most wanted.

2 hours ago, DreamKid said:

Hollywood had requested the trade the year prior and informed Lamar about it then, so he wasn't blindsided. Those messages he put out during the draft were explained as him being surprised that Marquise was actually at the draft in person. I believe it was clarified because Lamar didn't want people to think he was dissing Linderbaum. 

The year prior? I’m going to need to see receipts because my recollection of this is that Hollywood made the request at the beginning of that offseason in ~Jan/Feb, privately to the team. It was then revealed to Lamar prior to the draft with no noted timeline, but i believe he knew for a couple weeks to a month prior IIRC.

But the calculus of when Lamar knew doesn’t change the fact that all of the WRs who played within that offense were unhappy except Sammy Watkins. Yet guys continued to say it wasn’t Lamar but was “the offense” (read: Roman).

It doesn’t change the fact that Lamar showed frustrations- in game and on multiple occasions- with the play clock getting low (that isn’t the type of frustration that happens all at once, that clearly built up over time).

So what we have is Lamar showed active frustrations at the play clock mismanagement and other players that were BFs with said player (Hollywood) and/or played with him for many years (Snead) showed active displeasure with the offense schematically. I’m sorry but it makes no sense to me that those things live in two separate vacuums of thought. That’s not how cooler talk works in the workplace.

If you don’t think Lamar and Hollywood were up playing Madden roasting Roman and saying things like “if this were your boy G-Ro your squad would still be in huddle” or “if this were your boy G-Ro your squad would be running with 4 TEs” than we’ll just have to agree to disagree about Roman because I highly doubt Lamar was co-signing us bringing him back when it was obvious to many in the fanbase that Roman should’ve been purged and the only reason he likely wasn’t was due to the injury excuse and fear of too much organizational change.

After the defensive disappointment that meant we’d be trying to implement a new offense and new defense all within the same offseason.. and Harbaugh shied away from that much organizational change, when in retrospect it’s clear that he should’ve just blew it all up.

[DreamKid]

1 hour ago, diamondbull424 said:

The year prior? I’m going to need to see receipts because my recollection of this is that Hollywood made the request at the beginning of that offseason in ~Jan/Feb, privately to the team. It was then revealed to Lamar prior to the draft with no noted timeline, but i believe he knew for a couple weeks to a month prior IIRC.

From his "I Am Athlete" Sirius interview   ---"I talked to Lamar about it after my second year," Brown said. "Then after my third year, leading up to the end of the season, he wasn't playing. I let him know again like, 'Bro, I can't do it.'

"It's not really on Lamar. I love Lamar. It was just, the system wasn't for me. I love all my teammates. I love the guys. But, it was just something I had to think about for myself. The Ravens, we both handled it the right way. I didn't go out and make anything public. I just kept it in house, kept working. It all worked out."----

So while the formal request directly to EDC came later, he did tell Lamar the year prior that he was going to seek a trade. Meaning Lamar knew since 2020 that Hollywood was asking for a trade.

Marquise comes off really bad in that. Dude plays in two playoff games where he has 11 catches for 196 yards and subsequently tells Lamar he wants off the team. Then, while everyone is dealing with injuries he's  complaining to Lamar about "I can't do it". 

2 hours ago, diamondbull424 said:

If you don’t think Lamar and Hollywood were up playing Madden roasting Roman and saying things like “if this were your boy G-Ro your squad would still be in huddle” or “if this were your boy G-Ro your squad would be running with 4 TEs” than we’ll just have to agree to disagree about Roman because I highly doubt Lamar was co-signing us bringing him back when it was obvious to many in the fanbase that Roman should’ve been purged and the only reason he likely wasn’t was due to the injury excuse and fear of too much organizational change.

Look I hated Roman and I think he robbed us of a ring, I wish Lamar had gotten him sh*t canned.. but that didn't happen. Even with Hollywood wanting out, even with the inability to sign FA WRs, and all the general passing system woes- Lamar didn't make an issue out of it. So I have to feel like there was tacit approval on Lamar's end for Roman to be retained, which plays into my thoughts on Lamar being too passive with his approach to his career. 

Passivity and maybe too much 'Positive Belief' are issues for Jackson. I think part of Lamar really believes he's so good that as long as he has protection we can win, and he doesn't really think about WRs the way most QBs do. That's his self belief, then you have his immediate belief in whoever we roster. I remember when we drafted PQ Lamar was on IG live talking about "That's Ray Lewis Jr". He just always believes in his guys, even to a fault. We heard a lot of hyped up presser comments from Lamar about guys like Boykin, Proche, etc and how they were secret weapons ready to be unleashed. Then maybe you have his belief in a friend with the Hollywood situation. Maybe part of Lamar just figured Marquise would come around eventually and rescind his trade request. Or even that Roman would eventually turn it around and create some dynamic passing game. IDK, it just seems like he has issues looking at situations realistically. Something that also would carry over to these elongated negotiations we've been in with him. 

2 hours ago, diamondbull424 said:

After the defensive disappointment that meant we’d be trying to implement a new offense and new defense all within the same offseason.. and Harbaugh shied away from that much organizational change, when in retrospect it’s clear that he should’ve just blew it all up.

Self preservation should be remembered as one of Harbaugh's strongest coaching instincts when we look back on his time here in Baltimore. I like Monken and am excited about the direction he can take this offense in, but Harbaugh vouching for one more year of Roman, waiting for his security as HC to restabilize, and then hiring a 57 year old OC is such a transparent series of moves from Johnny Boy. 

It had to get to this point for Roman to exit the club 😂-

 

[AngusMcFife]

My overall stance is that having a "franchise" QB who is not committed to the Ravens organization is not a sustainable situation moving forward. There has to be trust and support between the QB, coaches, and FO. The QB trying to bilk the FO for ridiculous amounts of money and demanding they sign expensive veteran WRs with injury history/PED suspensions so he might play here 1 more year sets a terrible precedent. The FO should not sacrifice roster quality going forward for a QB who is not committed to the team. 

IMO it wouldn't surprise me if the Ravens are proactive to address this problem in the draft if it falls a certain way.