Saints to name Joe Woods as DC

[MWil23]

36 minutes ago, Dome said:

It’s still Dennis Allen’s defense.

Theres zero reason to think he will change what’s been working for 5 years here. 

 

Let's all hope that's the case.

[Dome]

19 minutes ago, MWil23 said:

Let's all hope that's the case.

Why wouldn’t it be?

I think a lot of people are just looking at titles and not context here.

Dennis Allen lost/moved on from Marcus Williams, Chauncey Gardner-Johnson and Malcolm Jenkins as he took over this HC job… he was supposed to feel the serious consequences of those losses, Payton left him high and dry and then he ****ed up by letting all that DB leadership walk.

He ended up putting together a defense that was 5th in yards and 9th in scoring while managing all the other responsibilities that came with becoming a HC. His specialty is the secondary and he proved he knows who he needs to make it work.

Allen didn’t have a DC last year, there really isn’t much of a need for one, they’ll likely do worse than he has. The saints defense has been really good for a while now under his watch.

 

So why is Woods even here?

To take over and change the defense?

Or because his old buddy wanted to give him a fluffed up title and a role where he’s stepping into a situation where the players are already there, they already know the scheme, and it’s already proven to work?

I’ll tell you where my money is at lol. 

[MWil23]

1 minute ago, Dome said:

Why wouldn’t it be?

I think a lot of people are just looking at titles and not context here.

Dennis Allen lost/moved on from Marcus Williams, Chauncey Gardner-Johnson and Malcolm Jenkins as he took over this HC job… he was supposed to feel the serious consequences of those losses, Payton left him high and dry and then he ****ed up by letting all that DB leadership walk.

He ended up putting together a defense that was 5th in yards and 9th in scoring while managing all the other responsibilities that came with becoming a HC. His specialty is the secondary and he proved he knows who he needs to make it work.

Allen didn’t have a DC last year, there really isn’t much of a need for one, they’ll likely do worse than he has. The saints defense has been really good for a while now under his watch.

 

So why is Woods even here?

To take over and change the defense?

Or because his old buddy wanted to give him a fluffed up title and a role where he’s stepping into a situation where the players are already there, they already know the scheme, and it’s already proven to work?

I’ll tell you where my money is at lol. 

Quoted for future reference

[Dome]

5 minutes ago, MWil23 said:

Quoted for future reference

Well at least give your reasoning.

Defensive coaches who have a proven scheme in place and the talent to run it successfully don’t generally hire crappy DCs to come make big changes to their defense.

They hire those types of guys because they are friends, or because they are getting them more experience as some nepotistic act, or because they just want more eyes they can trust taking a look at things

I cannot think of a single time it’s happened they way you are predicting it will, so you should probably say why you think this situation is different. 
 

for future reference 

[MWil23]

35 minutes ago, Dome said:

Well at least give your reasoning.

Defensive coaches who have a proven scheme in place and the talent to run it successfully don’t generally hire crappy DCs to come make big changes to their defense.

They hire those types of guys because they are friends, or because they are getting them more experience as some nepotistic act, or because they just want more eyes they can trust taking a look at things

I cannot think of a single time it’s happened they way you are predicting it will, so you should probably say why you think this situation is different. 
 

for future reference 

I think, to explain my rationale, generally coordinators, albeit not always, are hired to implement their scheme as opposed to someone else's scheme. Sure, I guess it's possible he's some type of mouthpiece with a cush job, but I don't buy that as a whole.

Joe Woods is an even front, 2 LB, 3 safety or 2 safety and a corner big nickel base and nickel guy who almost exclusively runs some variation of Cover 3.

I watched him take one of the best man/press man corners in the NFL in Denzel Ward and force him to play Cover 3, watched them draft JOK to be an apex/big nickel star player and then play him at SAM LB in base packages, while running a defense relying heavily on safety alley filling while not using his EDGE players to set an edge or have a single viable answer for a +1 pull fit, being a full fit short for over 2 years.

Pete Werner is a fantastic Will and Lattimore is a fantastic man/press man corner, so I foresee him utilizing Werner more as a MIKE and Lattimore in match, Cover 3, or quarters variations per his scheme.

Maybe not, but his track record in Cleveland doesn't inspire any confidence, as he was content to burn the defense down with his soft zone scheme...while he was towards the bottom of the NFL in willingness to blitz, and they were historically bad against the run this past year, not even getting into their pathetic 3rd and 4th Down defense over the years.

[Dome]

4 minutes ago, MWil23 said:

I think, to explain my rationale, generally coordinators, albeit not always, are hired to implement their scheme as opposed to someone else's scheme.

I’ll need some examples of times that a HC hired a coordinator that was going to come in and take over the HCs area of expertise.

And how many times was that area of expertise was already a team strength when the coordinator was brought in?

I honestly cannot think of one time it’s happened, you’re saying it’s generally what happens. 

4 minutes ago, MWil23 said:

Sure, I guess it's possible he's some type of mouthpiece with a cush job, but I don't buy that as a whole.

It makes more sense to you that Dennis Allen is hiring Woods so he can relinquishing control over the defense he’s built over the last 5 years?

Why?

 

4 minutes ago, MWil23 said:

Joe Woods is an even front, 2 LB, 3 safety or 2 safety and a corner big nickel base and nickel guy who almost exclusively runs some variation of Cover 3.

I watched him take one of the best man/press man corners in the NFL in Denzel Ward and force him to play Cover 3, watched them draft JOK to be an apex/big nickel star player and then play him at SAM LB in base packages, while running a defense relying heavily on safety alley filling while not using his EDGE players to set an edge or have a single viable answer for a +1 pull fit, being a full fit short for over 2 years.

Pete Werner is a fantastic Will and Lattimore is a fantastic man/press man corner, so I foresee him utilizing Werner more as a MIKE and Lattimore in match, Cover 3, or quarters variations per his scheme.

Maybe not, but his track record in Cleveland doesn't inspire any confidence, as he was content to burn the defense down with his soft zone scheme...while he was towards the bottom of the NFL in willingness to blitz, and they were historically bad against the run this past year, not even getting into their pathetic 3rd and 4th Down defense over the years.

So you’re looking his time in Cleveland where his rookie HC was offensive focused and likely really hands off with the defense.

But his  new HC is defensive focused, already calls the plays, already has his guys in place, and already knows his scheme has worked here for years.

I’m just failing to see how they are comparable situations. 

[MWil23]

10 minutes ago, Dome said:

I’ll need some examples of times that a HC hired a coordinator that was going to come in and take over the HCs area of expertise.

And how many times was that area of expertise was already a team strength when the coordinator was brought in?

I honestly cannot think of one time it’s happened, you’re saying it’s generally what happens. 

Off of the top of my head, LeBeau in Pittsburgh under Cowher comes to mind immediately.

10 minutes ago, Dome said:

It makes more sense to you that Dennis Allen is hiring Woods so he can relinquishing control over the defense he’s built over the last 5 years?

Why?

Perhaps because he wants to be a more present "culture and CEO" type of coach. Clearly the offense needs addressed and perhaps it's a better fit for the overall trajectory of the Saints, I really don't know, nor am I saying definitively that he's going to completely change the scheme. I do believe that you'll see a scheme that's largely zone based with minimal blitzing, while utilizing heavy nickel personnel, because that's who Woods is.

12 minutes ago, Dome said:

So you’re looking his time in Cleveland where his rookie HC was offensive focused and likely really hands off with the defense.

Valid, but I'd say we saw a tremendous dropoff when Wade Phillips left Denver and he was given the DC job, albeit they run/ran a heavy zone scheme, as did SF where he moved to next as a DB guy.

12 minutes ago, Dome said:

But his  new HC is defensive focused, already calls the plays, already has his guys in place, and already knows his scheme has worked here for years.

I’m just failing to see how they are comparable situations. 

If NO runs a heavy zone and minimal blitzing nickel personnel scheme, then I wouldn't be concerned. If they're more man and blitz dependent, it will take a step backwards IMO.

[Dome]

15 minutes ago, MWil23 said:

Off of the top of my head, LeBeau in Pittsburgh under Cowher comes to mind immediately.

LeBeau was a DB coach who already on Cowher‘s staff for three years when he was promoted… Cowher had also already established that DC was an important role on his team with Dom Capers the previous years.

Not comparable to what’s happening in New Orleans.

You said this is something that generally happens but the example you gave was almost 30 years ago, and it’s not even the same thing.

do you have an example from this millennium?

 

unless you are already talking about the reunion, in which case it doesn’t need to be explained why those situations aren’t comparable

Edited February 7, 2023 by Dome

[scar988]

2 hours ago, Dome said:

Well at least give your reasoning.

Defensive coaches who have a proven scheme in place and the talent to run it successfully don’t generally hire crappy DCs to come make big changes to their defense.

They hire those types of guys because they are friends, or because they are getting them more experience as some nepotistic act, or because they just want more eyes they can trust taking a look at things

I cannot think of a single time it’s happened they way you are predicting it will, so you should probably say why you think this situation is different. 
 

for future reference 

I think a bigger issue for the Saints comes to the cap and how their personnel is tied up. They keep kickign the can down the road instead of ripping off the bandaid for a rebuild and it's going to bite them on defense sooner rather than later with all of their DL and LB talent coming up for contracts this year and next.

[AFlaccoSeagulls]

Sorry Saints fans but this is a really bad hire. Y'all better hope @Dome is right and he's basically here to steal a check and hang out with his buddy Dennis Allen, because if he has any input into play calling or scheme that defense is SCREWED.

 

[MWil23]

50 minutes ago, Dome said:

LeBeau was a DB coach who already on Cowher‘s staff for three years when he was promoted… Cowher had also already established that DC was an important role on his team with Dom Capers the previous years.

Not comparable to what’s happening in New Orleans.

You said this is something that generally happens but the example you gave was almost 30 years ago, and it’s not even the same thing.

do you have an example from this millennium?

 

unless you are already talking about the reunion, in which case it doesn’t need to be explained why those situations aren’t comparable

You're right. Great hire. He's a genius. He's going to really elevate the entire defensive scheme and especially the defensive backfield. LB play will also be awesome and I'm sure it's a great overall hire.

[Dome]

2 minutes ago, AFlaccoSeagulls said:

Sorry Saints fans but this is a really bad hire. Y'all better hope @Dome is right and he's basically here to steal a check and hang out with his buddy Dennis Allen, because if he has any input into play calling or scheme that defense is SCREWED.

We saw no discernible difference in our scheme when Allen named Nielson and Richards co-coordinators, because it was Allens defense they were coordinating. Their job was to help him coach and carry out the defense he’d already established.

Woods will be in the same role. 

[AFlaccoSeagulls]

Just now, Dome said:

We saw no discernible difference in our scheme when Allen named Nielson and Richards co-coordinators, because it was Allens defense they were coordinating. Their job was to help him coach and carry out the defense he’d already established.

Woods will be in the same role. 

I mean the way I look at this is, best case scenario the defense stays at the level it was. It can't get better with Joe Woods.

However, worst case scenario is Joe Woods actually comes in and has influence on the defense and it goes right to where Cleveland's defense went.

It's hard for me to believe the defense won't regress with a new coordinator, even if he's just coordinator-in-title-only. However, I guess this is the NFCS and the other 3 teams in the division literally don't have starting QB's at the moment...

[MWil23]

Oh and if we are including offense, Kellen Moore and Mike McCarthy is a pretty easy example.

[Dome]

Just now, MWil23 said:

You're right. Great hire. He's a genius. He's going to really elevate the entire defensive scheme and especially the defensive backfield. LB play will also be awesome and I'm sure it's a great overall hire.

Literally not what I’ve said at all lol

but I’ll bet you the saints defense is good next year with little to no change in the scheme

 

you said something “generally happens” a certain way, then when I asked you to to produce an example of it happening that way to went back in the Time Machine and referenced one of the best coaches in modern football history getting hired by another one if the best coaches 

do you have another example or not? Cause it seems like now you’re refusing to discuss it further and being pedantic lol