The STL Cardinals Thread - Welcome to STL JJ!

[JonStark]

3 hours ago, ttitansfan4life said:

And now they’ve sent Gorman down for Fermin. Just another player this organization has ruined. Send him legit anywhere else and he’s batting .250+ with 40+ bombs.

It's pretty unbelievable how this specific staff has affected some of our young players. I'm fully aware Mo is a problem and needs to go but I really think the coaching, from Oli to the pitching/hitting coaches, are absolutely pathetic. They all need to go before they get to Winn and some of the guys we have in the minors. 

[ThatJerkDave]

Remember when they decided not to trade for Juan Soto because they didn't want to include Dylan Carlson in the deal?  Good move!

[StLunatic88]

14 hours ago, JonStark said:

. I'm fully aware Mo is a problem and needs to go but I really think the coaching, from Oli to the pitching/hitting coaches, are absolutely pathetic.

But again, who put them in place? And the previous coaches who did similar stuff, in place? This is all pointing back to Mo, and until we move on, its just going to keep happening (which is why I was such a proponent of sending Walker for LRJ)

[StLunatic88]

13 hours ago, ThatJerkDave said:

Remember when they decided not to trade for Juan Soto because they didn't want to include Dylan Carlson in the deal?  Good move!

Thats not what happened, stop with this nonsense.

There is plenty to call Mo & Co out for, there is no need to make up stuff

[ThatJerkDave]

37 minutes ago, StLunatic88 said:

Thats not what happened, stop with this nonsense.

There is plenty to call Mo & Co out for, there is no need to make up stuff

Story I heard was that everything was worked out for a deal but the sticking point was the Cardinals didn't want to give up Carlson.  

[kgarrett12486]

25 minutes ago, ThatJerkDave said:

Story I heard was that everything was worked out for a deal but the sticking point was the Cardinals didn't want to give up Carlson.  

The Dylan Carlson thing has since been disproven by several insiders. He was not the hang-up in that deal. It was that Nationals wanted both him and Walker included in the deal (along with other prospects), and we weren't going to give up that much team control/talent for 1+ season of Soto, who wasn't going to re-sign here. 

[ThatJerkDave]

36 minutes ago, kgarrett12486 said:

The Dylan Carlson thing has since been disproven by several insiders. He was not the hang-up in that deal. It was that Nationals wanted both him and Walker included in the deal (along with other prospects), and we weren't going to give up that much team control/talent for 1+ season of Soto, who wasn't going to re-sign here. 

Fair enough.

 

 

I see those jerks decided to win in a walk off the day after I had tickets.  Couldn't have switched games? Jerks! 🤣

[ThatJerkDave]

Part of the half news that I get is that I listen to the espn radio, but it is 70% ads, 20% Blues (I can't stand hockey), and 5% how good the Rams were in like 1999, so the off chance that I happen to turn on the radio, and they happen to talk about the Cardinals is the little bit that I get outside of actually going to the ball park.  

[StLunatic88]

5 hours ago, kgarrett12486 said:

The Dylan Carlson thing has since been disproven by several insiders. He was not the hang-up in that deal. It was that Nationals wanted both him and Walker included in the deal (along with other prospects), and we weren't going to give up that much team control/talent for 1+ season of Soto, who wasn't going to re-sign here. 

From all that I gathered, we were never close to getting Soto because we werent willing to include most of what the Nationals wanted, because when it came down to it, the Padres also wanted Josh Bell which helped leverage more prospects for a guy they were willing to toss away regardless.

But what was on the table (from the Nationals) that Ive gathered from tid-bits here and there was Carlson + Walker to start, that was non negotiable to them. Then one of Gorman/Winn and 2 of the Top 3 Arms, so 2 of Liberatore/Hence (who they wanted ) or might have taken one of Thompson/McGrevey depending on who they got of Gorman/Winn

It surely would have been a fun team to have going into those playoffs. But we still had plenty of Pitchiung issues (while sending out multiple pitching prospects) and most importantly, there is no way Soto is signing here when his contract is up, and where we were at this season +Soto in the lineup, are we selling him? I doubt it, so we likely have nothing to show for it 2 seasons later

 

I suggested Walker +Hererra +Saggese +McGreevy for Luis Robert (3+ years of control) and nearly everyone here balked at it. So there was no way people would have been happy about that Soto deal the minute that team was eliminated from the playoffs that year

Edited August 22 by StLunatic88

[kgarrett12486]

4 hours ago, StLunatic88 said:

But again, who put them in place? And the previous coaches who did similar stuff, in place? This is all pointing back to Mo, and until we move on, its just going to keep happening (which is why I was such a proponent of sending Walker for LRJ)

Agreed 100%. We've now seen (2) completely different managers and staff under Mo and Girsch over the recent past and it inevitably failed in both instances. While i think both managers/staffs had deficiencies in their in-game management, I continue to stand by the fact that neither one is the root of the issue. Their impacts were much more meniscal compared to the real issues that hamper this team year end/out during this tenure - roster construction/management and player development at the MLB level. The FO continues to be one of the worst at managing the active and 40-man roster. They continually handcuff said manager(s) by doing so and want to influence the line-up construction, which is a big issue why Schildt was let go. 

This FO (along with ownership) became complacent over this period because of the success Mo and crew saw early and sustained up until the last 3-5 years. As such, they continued to roll with the philosophy/approach that they did back in those years, while baseball was evolving rapidly. As such, we've been scrambling the last few years to adjust and catch-up, yet not fully committing and still trying to merry the old approach with the new school, which has been a complete failure. 

Step (1) to try and correct this is we have to start fresh with a break from Girsch/Mol and current managerial/coaching staff. Let Bloom (if it is him) start with his own guys in place vs. the hand me down from prior regime. This isn't going to be a (1) year process either, we're talking multiple years here because I think ownership is going to be in this holding pattern in terms of FA spending due to the ongoing TV contractual issues. Until that gets full resolved, I don't see us increasing payroll by any significance (in fact I think we'll be cutting from where we were this season). So that means we better find a way identify cost control players that could be in the core via trade and to continue to hit on the draft. 

Now that leads me to the biggest thing that has to change with this organization - the development/message at the MLB with the prospects. I've seen several things from those that cover the Cardinals and players that there is not a cohesive message being preached at every level of the minors. Meaning players are taught/preached to with one message at rookie-AA levels and then when they're on cusp of MLB, the FO steps in and overhauls that message to fit what they envision. I think that is a big reason we continue to see these guys come up and struggle long-term, as it's not them asking to make tweaks, like adding a leg kick to a swing, or having them add a pitch to an arsenal, we're talking about trying to change plate approaches and pitching attacks. That messes with guys mentally and has been a source of frustration which has been voiced by more than one. 

 

[kgarrett12486]

1 hour ago, StLunatic88 said:

I suggested Walker +Hernandez +Saggese +McGreevy for Luis Robert (3+ years of control) and nearly everyone here balked at it. So there was no way people would have been happy about that Soto deal the minute that team was eliminated from the playoffs that year

It's not a good comparison though because Juan Soto is a significantly better player than LRJ. I'd rather have less control for a significant increase in talent/production for a team that was in win now mode. 

[StLunatic88]

28 minutes ago, kgarrett12486 said:

Juan Soto is a significantly better player than LRJ

Ehhh, Im going to have to disagree with that.

Sure when comparing anyone to Soto, who now might be the best player in baseball on any given day, there is going to be a drop off. But A) he wasnt quite to this level in 2022, and B) Robert is a Top 20-25 player in baseball to me. That is a Face of the Franchise type guy. Yes Im aware of the injuries, but thats really the only real thing holing him back to me anymore, and yes they could really hold him back, but he has everything you want, I cant say that about many guys

 

But my original point was, The package I put forward is way less than what it would have taken to get Soto 2 years ago. Walker currently has like half the value from then, Carlson/Herera is a best a wash (Carlson was thought of higher in my estimation) And Saggese v Winn/Gorman isnt even close. The only asset that may have improved from that time is McGreavey. 

I wasnt saying one is a better deal, just that the LRJ deal was less valuable with longer term team control and no one wanted that one

 

[kgarrett12486]

35 minutes ago, StLunatic88 said:

Ehhh, Im going to have to disagree with that.

Sure when comparing anyone to Soto, who now might be the best player in baseball on any given day, there is going to be a drop off. But A) he wasnt quite to this level in 2022, and B) Robert is a Top 20-25 player in baseball to me. That is a Face of the Franchise type guy. Yes Im aware of the injuries, but thats really the only real thing holing him back to me anymore, and yes they could really hold him back, but he has everything you want, I cant say that about many guys

 

But my original point was, The package I put forward is way less than what it would have taken to get Soto 2 years ago. Walker currently has like half the value from then, Carlson/Herera is a best a wash (Carlson was thought of higher in my estimation) And Saggese v Winn/Gorman isnt even close. The only asset that may have improved from that time is McGreavey. 

I wasnt saying one is a better deal, just that the LRJ deal was less valuable with longer term team control and no one wanted that one

 

It's not even comparing them now, if you look at Soto over his first (5) seasons vs. Robert's first (5) there is a massive value difference across the board. 

Soto - .296/.432/.549, .981 OPS, 165 OPS+, 25 HR, 75 RBI, 4.2 WAR

Robert - .269/.318/.487, .805 OPS, 120 OPS+, 18 HR, 48 RBI, 2.6 WAR

We can even draw a comparison of Soto's 2022 season with Nats - as it was one of worst of his career and he played on the worst team in baseball at that time to LBJ's current season - his worst season to date and plays on worst team in baseball, it's not even close again.

Soto - .246/.408/.485, .894 OPS, 158 OPS+ in 101 games

Robert - .218/.276/.418, .694 OPS, 94 OPS+ in 72 games

Soto is/has been a top (5) player in baseball basically his entire career. Even if we concede LRJ is top (25) guy - which is generous to me based off what he's doing this year, you're talking about two completely different stratospheres of players. 

I get what you're trying to say with the trade packages, but even with the team control and level of prospects we would've been giving up, I think you're getting more value with Soto then and over the course of those (2) years than what you'd likely get with LRJ now and over (3) years. Plus, I don't think the White Sox consider our deal without a pitcher more like Hjerpe in there instead of McGreevy.

[MOSteelers56]

Quinn Matthews twirled another gem for SpringVegas last night. 12Ks over 7 2/3s. 

[ttitansfan4life]

1 hour ago, MOSteelers56 said:

Quinn Matthews twirled another gem for SpringVegas last night. 12Ks over 7 2/3s. 

Kid seems like a stud. When exactly is his ETA? He definitely seems like he should be in at least AAA now the way he’s dominating AA batters.