Biggest HOF Snubs?

[Jakuvious]

1 hour ago, AkronsWitness said:

I will counter and ask are sacks the most overrated stat? Whoever is the sack leader seems to win DPOY, sacks get talked about in HOF discussion, ect. Its like they are more important than anything you can do defensively. I watched Jason Taylor rob Champ Bailey of a DPOY award in 2006 because he had 13 sacks and 9 FFs from it meanwhile Champ had a league leading 11 INTs on top of rarely getting thrown at as a CB, not a S.

Jason Taylor was like 4th in sacks that year. Taylor didn't get DPOY that season because he got so many sacks, he got it because his overall contribution on that defense was insane. 13.5 sacks, but also 9 FFs, 2 FRs, 2 INTs, 11 PDs, two defensive touchdowns, etc. Bailey was deserving as well, but saying he was robbed is a huge disservice to what Taylor did that year.

It also wasn't all that common for a pass rusher to win at that point in time. Off the ball LBs and do it all Ss both won more often than defensive linemen in the 2000s. It's more recent that it's all pass rushers, as LBs have become devalued alongside RBs, and QBs don't throw nearly enough INTs for DBs to have as flashy of stats anymore. 

[Jakuvious]

On 6/11/2023 at 7:39 PM, Superduperman said:

I'm gonna change the subject from Bo for a minute and ask: what players suffer the most from sacks not being kept as an official stat until 1982? Who would be in if they were counted all along?

I'm gonna give two Lions players: Roger Brown and Bubba Baker.

Going to be honest, Al Baker was a guy I literally never knew existed until PFR started going back and tallying sacks pre-1982. First time I had ever heard the name.

[Soko]

On 6/6/2023 at 7:36 PM, Tetsujin said:

Would anyone be upset if Bo made it in?

Yes.

That would quite possibly be the worst HOF induction in NFL history. 

[AkronsWitness]

9 hours ago, Jakuvious said:

Jason Taylor was like 4th in sacks that year. Taylor didn't get DPOY that season because he got so many sacks, he got it because his overall contribution on that defense was insane. 13.5 sacks, but also 9 FFs, 2 FRs, 2 INTs, 11 PDs, two defensive touchdowns, etc. Bailey was deserving as well, but saying he was robbed is a huge disservice to what Taylor did that year.

It also wasn't all that common for a pass rusher to win at that point in time. Off the ball LBs and do it all Ss both won more often than defensive linemen in the 2000s. It's more recent that it's all pass rushers, as LBs have become devalued alongside RBs, and QBs don't throw nearly enough INTs for DBs to have as flashy of stats anymore. 

Im not going to debate this because its going to go nowhere and waste everyones time---but my point remains that sacks are probably the most overrated statistic for defensive players and far too often it feels like voters default to a list of current sack leaders when deciding on accolades. 

[Mr Bad Example]

On 6/13/2023 at 1:18 AM, Jakuvious said:

Going to be honest, Al Baker was a guy I literally never knew existed until PFR started going back and tallying sacks pre-1982. First time I had ever heard the name.

That was Coy Bacon for me - "who IS this guy, holy crao"

[Mr Bad Example]

On 6/5/2023 at 4:20 AM, HerbertGOAT said:

 

• Ken Anderson: Joe Montana before Joe Montana, he was absurdly accurate against the teeth of the vicious 1970's NFL defenses. Led the league in Comp% 3 times, Yards twice, Passer Rating 4 times, and won an MVP. Forever marred by not winning a Ring on teams that were lucky to make the playoffs.

There's an argument for Anderson as the best QB of the 70s, and when Staubach is the guy he's going up against that's one heck of a compliment.

[Mr Bad Example]

On 6/7/2023 at 12:52 PM, Tetsujin said:

The game tape says HOFer.

The game tape runs out when you're going "wow, this guy might be the most talented runner I've seen, let's see what he accomplished"

Edited June 15, 2023 by Mr Bad Example

[AngusMcFife]

On 6/14/2023 at 11:31 AM, Mr Bad Example said:

There's an argument for Anderson as the best QB of the 70s, and when Staubach is the guy he's going up against that's one heck of a compliment.

The 1970s were a down decade for QBs, though. Defenses were brutal, and there were no GOAT candidate QBs unless they were way past their prime. 

[Mr Bad Example]

48 minutes ago, AngusMcFife said:

The 1970s were a down decade for QBs, though. Defenses were brutal, and there were no GOAT candidate QBs unless they were way past their prime. 

Staubach is a GOAT QB. Tarkenton retired as the all tome passing yds/td leader.. Anderson is severely forgotten.

Griese, Stabler,  and Bradshaw made the HoF (and SBs). Bert Jones and Archie Manning were highly respected by coaches and players in the league.

QB in the 70s wasn't as barren as people like to think.

Edited June 15, 2023 by Mr Bad Example

[Steelersfan43]

If Terrell Davis is IN,Sharpe deserve to be IN too

 

 

[Jakuvious]

On 6/5/2023 at 6:58 AM, MikeT14 said:

Player A - 256 games, AV 138, 23 INT, 39 sacks, 1384 solo tackles, 19 FF, 12 FR, 96, PDs, Super Bowl Champ, 4x Pro Bowl, 2x All Pro

Player B - 182 games, AV 152, 22 INT, 41.5 sacks, 1046 solo tackles, 11 FF, 16 FR, 8x Pro Bowls, 5x All Pro, 1 DPoY, Hall of Famer

Player C - 184 games, AV 148, 17 INT, 20.5 sacks, 1107 solo tackles, 16 FF, 8 FR, 48 PDs, 7x Pro Bowl, 7x All Pro, Hall of Famer

Player D - 224 games, AV 192, 25 INT, 13.5 sacks, 1300 solo tackles, 24 FF, 4 FR, Super Bowl Champ, 11x Pro Bowls, 9x All-Pros, 1 DPoY, Hall of Famer

Player E - 268 games, AV 195, 18 INT, 56.5 sacks, 1077 solo tackles, 11 FF, 18 FR, 12x Pro Bowler, 9x All-Pro, 1 UPI DPoY

 

Player A is London Fletcher, Player B is Brian Urlacher, Player C is Zack Thomas, Player D is Derrick Brooks, Player E is Junior Seau

Hall of Very Good? Probably. The man was underappreciated his whole career though. 

So, I'm going to rant here for a moment, and I want to be clear, this isn't directed at you, you just happened to be the one to mention him.

I think London Fletcher has had one of the strangest career reputations of any player I've ever seen. And I saw this live, because I was already pretty active around places like this (not this one per se, but similar forums) back through the course of his career. London Fletcher was absolutely underrated for the first like decade of his career. He was basically an afterthought in St. Louis and Buffalo, because no one cared about the defensive players on the GSOT, and then he was there for the dark ages of Bills football where no one really cared about the Bills at all. He was absolutely underrated those years, because he was still a very good LB that entire time. He wasn't a Lewis or Urlacher or Thomas, but he was very good through that whole stretch.

But then he went to Washington, and around 2007/2008, this narrative started to hit the internet that London Fletcher was underrated. And this went absolutely everywhere. Every article, every forum post, anything about "the most underrated player in the league" the answer was London Fletcher. Like universally. And it became fully mainstream, as an opinion. He made 4 straight pro-bowls, two second team all-pros. For the last 5 or 6 years of his career, he was 100% appropriately rated. He was left behind Patrick Willis, but that was simply correct. But he was up there in the discourse with anyone else from that time. Derrick Johnson, Navorro Bowman, Daryl Washington, etc. He was right where he needed to be.

But that narrative never died. You find any article, to this day, about the most underrated players in NFL history, he will absolutely be on it. And it reaches this awkward tipping point, where when the universal consensus is that a player is underrated...he's not really underrated anymore. Looking back at Fletcher's career, most anyone now would say he wasn't as good as Ray Lewis or Brian Urlacher or Zach Thomas or Patrick Willis, and he wasn't, but he was as good as any other ILB over that span, and he was. That's where he fell. He is to LBs over that span what Curtis Martin was to RBs over his career, or Mike Evans to WRs over the past decade. You could always have described Fletcher as one of the best LBs in football. But you could never have called him the best. He would've always made a top 10 list, sometimes a top 5 list, but there was always at least one guy clearly better. And whether that is hall worthy has more to do with what you want the hall to be, than Fletcher's rating. I've always preferred the guy with a 5 year career where for 4 years he was the best there was in the league, over the guy who for 17 years was the 6th best guy at his position. But that's my preference, and definitely doesn't align with how the hall actually chooses guys.

 

tl;dr, after 15 years of saying he's underrated, Fletcher really isn't underrated anymore. And he definitely wasn't as good as the 4 guys listed as comparison, though he was an excellent player for a long time.

[MikeT14]

Good post @Jakuvious

[Tetsujin]

On 6/13/2023 at 12:00 AM, AkronsWitness said:

I watched Jason Taylor rob Champ Bailey of a DPOY award in 2006 because he had 13 sacks and 9 FFs from it meanwhile Champ had a league leading 11 INTs on top of rarely getting thrown at as a CB, not a S.

JT also had 2 INTs he ran both back for TDs. Those were athletic plays too, not some luck on a tipped up pass at the LOS. And being a good run defender.

Edited June 16, 2023 by Tetsujin

[Tetsujin]

On 6/9/2023 at 1:16 PM, john305 said:

Being one of the most talented is not the same as being one of the best. Also cherry picking one stat does nothing for your argument.

I'm using the stat to support what my eyeballs saw.

[CP3MVP]

On 6/6/2023 at 6:46 AM, MWil23 said:

Randy Gradishar IMO. He had over 2,000 tackles and made like 7 Pro Bowls.

One of the best linebackers to ever play this game and the leader of a great orange crush defense. Their problem was they never won “the big one”