Let's talk rookie TE's in the NFL.....

[Old Guy]

8 hours ago, craig said:

On Musgrave, I value the "really really intelligent" commentary, and that seems to get referenced anytime MLF mentions him.  Big advantage at any NFL position, and a big advantage in learning a complex position like TE as a rookie.  Lots easier for a coach to use a rookie who he trusts will remember instructions. 

 

 

I hope this is not also a reflection on Kraft not being ready and Musgrave is getting all the praise. I'd really like to have a two headed monster at TE for several years going forward. 

This is an exciting new chapter in Packer football with all the youth and hope that goes with that. 

[vegas492]

14 hours ago, Brat&Beer said:

The QB and coach like Luke:

 

[craig]

1 hour ago, Old Guy said:

I hope this is not also a reflection on Kraft not being ready and Musgrave is getting all the praise. I'd really like to have a two headed monster at TE for several years going forward. 

This is an exciting new chapter in Packer football with all the youth and hope that goes with that. 

This made me think about 2-headed-TE-monster and 12 sets and stuff.  

1. How many NFL teams have played 2TE a lot at the same time, and successfully used both as receivers?  Gronk and the killer come to mind.  Have there been many/any others?  If so, many where both played on line, versus using one as H-back?  
2. MLF's usage of 2TE is nontrivial but modest, usually with one as H-back.  Packers played a 2TE on 133% of snaps last year, including Deguara (~1/4 of time).  In healthy-Tonyan 2020, it was about 120%.)  
3. Between Kraft and Musgrave, which would better fit H-back function?  Neither?  Either?  Kraft is just a better blocker and better pad level, so he'd be better motion blocker?  Or might H-back give Musgrave a free release to use his speed on routes?  Or are both just too big for H-back function?  
4. MLF has also spoken favorably about Kraft's intelligence.  Kraft comes across well in interviews. He might be brought along more slowly than Musgrave.  His talents are less distinctive than with Musgrave, who is distinctively faster/longer/smoother than the others.  
5. Musgrave the smooth speedster may be at his best running on air.  Might he turn invisible one pads contest the free runs?  Might Choppy Kraft be less impacted?  

[craig]

Deguara: some posts that he was underutilized and may break out.  I wonder:  might it be that his usage last year, playing 25% as an in-space blocker, with rare targets, was exactly the usage it should be? 

With ~30 throws per game, do I want more to Degaura and less to Musgrave, Watson, Doubs, Reed, and Jones?  He's slowest, least elusive, least explosive, least Yac-y, and may have the worst hands.  Do I want more targets his way?  

Or more snaps?  Use Musgrave, Reed, Kraft, and Toure less so Deguara can get used more?  

I know nothing.  Maybe more snaps and targets for him will pay off, beats me.  **Efficiency** is the goal.  Maybe he can be a high-efficiency target, with more wide open easy targets.  Might be efficient to get some easy throws/catches and convert some easy first downs to Deguara, without needing to thread the needle on tightly-contested balls to Doubs?  Maybe Deguara's rookie drops were then, but he's ready to be good-hands-reliable now, and make red-zone and 1st-down catches now? 

Beats me.  Maybe he can be situational take-what-the-defense-gives efficient?  Defenses are going to give attention to Watson, Doubs, and Jones.  They gave zero attention to Lewis. Deguara got nominal zone coverage.  Perhaps exactly because he seems relatively non-dangerous, he will sometimes get no-coverage looks and easy completions?  Efficiency completions that some defenses will allow while committing more difficult matchups to our better weapons?  

Edited June 16, 2023 by craig

[ThatJerkDave]

1 minute ago, craig said:

 

Or more snaps?  Use Musgrave, Reed, Kraft, and Toure less so Deguara can get used more?  

 

I would guess there is some situational usage with this.  In a goal to go situation, you may line up giants Watson and Musgrave outside with Kraft at the TE and Deguara as a FB.  I would also guess that a run heavy formation probably benefits from Deguara as a threat to block more than it would Toure or Reed.  Different tools for different jobs.  And perhaps you are correct, using Deguara in about 25% of snaps may be the correct usage for that specific tool. 

[craig]

Any thoughts on Lazard function?  He played a lot of slot, with a lot of blocking function.  Will they just not use some of those sets?  Or, expect Reed or Slender Toure to make those blocks?  Bring Watson or Doubs into slot to provide those blocks?  

Or might they sometimes use TEs split out to take Lazard's place in some of those sets?  Deguara isn't as fast or agile as Lazard.  But might he perhaps get some of those split-out Lazard-blocking sets?  Or maybe Musgrave?  He's probably almost as fast as Lazard, so might be all the passing threat that Lazard was?  Some of Lazard's blocks were predicated on guys thinking he was going out, then he'd unexpectedly block them.  That deception might not work at all with Deguara, but maybe with Musgrave it would? 

Just kinda curious whether WRs will just next-man-up in Lazard's responsibilities, or TE's, or if he was just a unique and special animal, and they won't even try to have guys try to do what he did.    

[Sandy]

2 hours ago, craig said:

This made me think about 2-headed-TE-monster and 12 sets and stuff.  

1. How many NFL teams have played 2TE a lot at the same time, and successfully used both as receivers?  Gronk and the killer come to mind.  Have there been many/any others?  If so, many where both played on line, versus using one as H-back?  
2. MLF's usage of 2TE is nontrivial but modest, usually with one as H-back.  Packers played a 2TE on 133% of snaps last year, including Deguara (~1/4 of time).  In healthy-Tonyan 2020, it was about 120%.)  
3. Between Kraft and Musgrave, which would better fit H-back function?  Neither?  Either?  Kraft is just a better blocker and better pad level, so he'd be better motion blocker?  Or might H-back give Musgrave a free release to use his speed on routes?  Or are both just too big for H-back function?  
4. MLF has also spoken favorably about Kraft's intelligence.  Kraft comes across well in interviews. He might be brought along more slowly than Musgrave.  His talents are less distinctive than with Musgrave, who is distinctively faster/longer/smoother than the others.  
5. Musgrave the smooth speedster may be at his best running on air.  Might he turn invisible one pads contest the free runs?  Might Choppy Kraft be less impacted?  

I'm curious, did you mean they averaged 1.33 TEs on the field?

[turf toe]

2 hours ago, craig said:

Any thoughts on Lazard function?  He played a lot of slot, with a lot of blocking function.  Will they just not use some of those sets?  Or, expect Reed or Slender Toure to make those blocks?  Bring Watson or Doubs into slot to provide those blocks?  

Or might they sometimes use TEs split out to take Lazard's place in some of those sets?  Deguara isn't as fast or agile as Lazard.  But might he perhaps get some of those split-out Lazard-blocking sets?  Or maybe Musgrave?  He's probably almost as fast as Lazard, so might be all the passing threat that Lazard was?  Some of Lazard's blocks were predicated on guys thinking he was going out, then he'd unexpectedly block them.  That deception might not work at all with Deguara, but maybe with Musgrave it would? 

Just kinda curious whether WRs will just next-man-up in Lazard's responsibilities, or TE's, or if he was just a unique and special animal, and they won't even try to have guys try to do what he did.    

I think Dequara played some in line TE last season, I doubt Lafleur will want to depend on the rookies in that roll, a missed block on pass plays and Love could get hurt, maybe as the season progresses some, I think we'll use Musgrave in the slot a lot, probably Kraft too, but less so.

finally we have some TE's that will be exciting to watch again.

[craig]

44 minutes ago, Sandy said:

I'm curious, did you mean they averaged 1.33 TEs on the field?

Yes.

[ThatJerkDave]

3 hours ago, craig said:

Any thoughts on Lazard function?  He played a lot of slot, with a lot of blocking function.  Will they just not use some of those sets?  Or, expect Reed or Slender Toure to make those blocks?  Bring Watson or Doubs into slot to provide those blocks?  

Or might they sometimes use TEs split out to take Lazard's place in some of those sets?  Deguara isn't as fast or agile as Lazard.  But might he perhaps get some of those split-out Lazard-blocking sets?  Or maybe Musgrave?  He's probably almost as fast as Lazard, so might be all the passing threat that Lazard was?  Some of Lazard's blocks were predicated on guys thinking he was going out, then he'd unexpectedly block them.  That deception might not work at all with Deguara, but maybe with Musgrave it would? 

Just kinda curious whether WRs will just next-man-up in Lazard's responsibilities, or TE's, or if he was just a unique and special animal, and they won't even try to have guys try to do what he did.    

I think that Musgrave fits that role of "big slot" the best of who is on the team.  Lazard is listed at 6'5 227, Musgrave is listed at 6'6 253.  Not sure that Musgrave has the nasty that Lazard had, as far as blocking, but he has 20 pounds on him.  Our only WR even 6'4 is Christian Watson, and that really isn't his game, and he gives up 20 pounds to Lazard, and doesn't utilize Christian's other abilities.  If we want an inline TE and a big slot, I would have Kraft or Davis inline and Musgrave in the slot.  

 

[MacReady]

Degaura is going to be the leading receiver in the TE room. If not, we’ve got an elite TE for the next 3 years.

[Uffdaswede]

8 minutes ago, MacReady said:

Degaura is going to be the leading receiver in the TE room. If not, we’ve got an elite TE for the next 3 years.

Can’t…tell… if you’re serious or not lol. But I kind of agree with you.

This is sort of how I feel about my team given its recent Rodgers centered history. I don’t trust them to actually use the players they have acquired. As silly as it sounds, the Deguara vs Musgrave battle for receptions this year may be a leading indicator for whether or not this offense will be 20th or 10th in the league this year.

Talking right out of my ol’ Swedish hinder with metaphorical hyperbole, I am hoping that our receivers can be the repeated right jabs that lead to Musgrave left hooks (in the form of 25 yard gashes right down the seam).

[Zycho32]

11 hours ago, craig said:

Deguara: some posts that he was underutilized and may break out.  I wonder:  might it be that his usage last year, playing 25% as an in-space blocker, with rare targets, was exactly the usage it should be? 

With ~30 throws per game, do I want more to Degaura and less to Musgrave, Watson, Doubs, Reed, and Jones?  He's slowest, least elusive, least explosive, least Yac-y, and may have the worst hands.  Do I want more targets his way?  

Or more snaps?  Use Musgrave, Reed, Kraft, and Toure less so Deguara can get used more?  

I know nothing.  Maybe more snaps and targets for him will pay off, beats me.  **Efficiency** is the goal.  Maybe he can be a high-efficiency target, with more wide open easy targets.  Might be efficient to get some easy throws/catches and convert some easy first downs to Deguara, without needing to thread the needle on tightly-contested balls to Doubs?  Maybe Deguara's rookie drops were then, but he's ready to be good-hands-reliable now, and make red-zone and 1st-down catches now? 

Beats me.  Maybe he can be situational take-what-the-defense-gives efficient?  Defenses are going to give attention to Watson, Doubs, and Jones.  They gave zero attention to Lewis. Deguara got nominal zone coverage.  Perhaps exactly because he seems relatively non-dangerous, he will sometimes get no-coverage looks and easy completions?  Efficiency completions that some defenses will allow while committing more difficult matchups to our better weapons?  

I'm thinking of William Henderson in this case; as a runner he wasn't utilized very often, so he typically occupied space in the run game for the 90's/00's Packers as a Lead Blocker, but he had a capacity as a safety valve out of the backfield in the WCO when thrown to. How's that relevant here? Well, we're generally expecting the traditional WR screens to be downgraded as Love is more daring and likely to go downfield(which is both a plus and a minus), meaning there's likely more room for Deguara to run routes from the backfield. And if Deguara can be utilized out of the backfield as a receiving option, the 21/22 alignments are less predictable as a result. As for mobility, he couldn't be less mobile than Danny Vitale, and I remember him once being used way out wide and nearly scoring a fairly long TD in the air.

[Zycho32]

Ten games in, the Musgrave/Kraft duo has combined officially for 38 receptions and 384 yards, with one TD. A lot of that is Kraft having completely dissappeared from the offense before this latest game against the Chargers. That said, there's still ample time to get to the 'Over' before the season's out.

[MacReady]

It’s being overshadowed by that guy in Detroit, but Musgrave is having a historically elite rookie season at tight end.

And it’s not just because of high target volume. He’s catching 74% of his targets.

Ladies and gentlemen, I ****ing toad a so.

You get your tight ends in the 2nd and 3rd round.

Same as your receivers. I’m ****ing vindicated. Again.