Let's talk rookie TE's in the NFL.....

[Zycho32]

40 minutes ago, craig said:

Heh heh, now's the time to be more optimistic!  . We'll see, who knows. 

Certainly this is an opportunity year for him, as the TE senior citizen; it's been a while since his injuries; he and Love have practiced together a lot, could have sync; modest competition for H-Back snaps; and Kraft-Mus are rookies.  Experience-based window-of-opportunity is massive.  

My perception is that he's become a pretty reliable, skilled blocker at the blocks he's been asked to make, even if those are usually H-back movement stuff.  But seems to me that he's gotten pretty stocky.  He's not as long as Musgrave; but I'm guessing for in-line blocking he'd probably be able to get in the way and be as trustworthy, if called upon for that.  

Interesting that Deguara's snaps went down quite a bit last year.  By over 100 snaps.   2021  33%, 367.  2022 258 snaps, 23.6%.   

• Was he hurt at all, or just MLF's package preference? 
• Maybe he got some of Tonyan's snaps in 2021 that went back to Bobby last year? 
• Maybe with the OL struggles, Deguara just wasn't a guy MLF wanted to use for OL help?   
• Who knows what MLF will do now. 
• My hope, of course, is that OL is healthy and better, with less TE-help required? 
• But my perception is that Deguara was used pretty exclusively as a blocker, and was maybe never among the first 4 targets on any pass designs. 

#2 is pretty much the answer. Somebody had to be the receiving threat alongside Lewis once Tonyan went down.

[ThatJerkDave]

3 hours ago, ThatJerkDave said:

I think part of the issue is Deguara's size.  He is listed at 6'2.  Our other TEs are all 6'4 or taller.  And the typical modern TE is a 6'5ish guy.  I am not sure that he has the reach to do all of the classic TE stuff.  But if you can get him moving around, he is more likely to create some kind of match-up issue.  He is probably still a little too stout for most defensive backs and too nimble for most LBs.  I am skeptical that he is large enough or strong enough to block like a classic TE, or even be a get in the way guy like J-Mike or Jimmy Graham.  

I want to also kind of middle ground myself here.  I don't mean that he can never block, or get in the way, just that I think he will struggle to do that consistently enough to want to put him in that position regularly.

[craig]

3 hours ago, Uffdaswede said:

I remember AG20 having something to say about fullbacks. Something about his having no use for a player that was never as good at running as the RBs, and not as good at catching as the receivers, and not as good at blocking as the OL.

 I thought there was some talk that Deguara was supposed to be MLF’s Kyle Juszczyk. He does seem to have some utility, but he’s sort of neither fish nor fowl nor Juszczyk. ....

Neither fish nor fowl, that captures it really well.  It might seem that movement blocking is the one thing MLF thinks he's better at than others, so that's why he's used 25% in packages where a movement-blocker is valued.  

I do wonder whether they maybe just whiffed on their scouting of the guy as a pass-catcher?  He caught a lot of throws in college.  But last year he only got 15 targets, they just didn't throw to him much.  Maybe they scouted a good pass-catcher but reality was stone hands?   And maybe lost his mobility, too, when he bulked up for blocking?  

 

[AlexGreen#20]

10 hours ago, vegas492 said:

I've long wondered if they could simply flip Deguara to more of a true TE role and then just draft another H-back or Fullback for the offense.  I think he's criminally underused.  As in, I think there's more talent there than what we are seeing.  Maybe Love gets him more opportunities this year.

But this is just me being overly optimistic right now.

He's too small and too slow to really stand out at TE. If he has a future, it's as a poor man's Kyle Juszczyk. Juszczyk would be a barely replacement level Y as well, if he could even play it. 

Deguara's only real high level trait is his high level open space blocking. If he isn't doing that, he's a mid-level ST player, and that's basically it. That guy isn't holding a roster spot on most teams. 

Deguara was underutilized, but a lot of that is because Marcedes Lewis was taking a lot of those blocking snaps. If you have a stud blocker at that Y spot, you **** around less with the misdirection and movement stuff that you need an H-back for.

Now that we're not going to have that elite blocker playing at the end of the line, the run game is going to have to change. That will involve more move blocking and will involve more of Deguara. If he's going to find a spot in the league, this is the year he has to prove it. You may also see him taking on more of Tonyan's blocking role, not because he's good at it, but because our rookies are likely to be unreliable. 

[AlexGreen#20]

7 hours ago, Uffdaswede said:

I remember AG20 having something to say about fullbacks. Something about his having no use for a player that was never as good at running as the RBs, and not as good at catching as the receivers, and not as good at blocking as the OL.

 I thought there was some talk that Deguara was supposed to be MLF’s Kyle Juszczyk. He does seem to have some utility, but he’s sort of neither fish nor fowl nor Juszczyk. It’s strange, in a way, for the team to have given such a big commitment—draftwise— to a position that they have not valued much on game day.

What I really hope to see is MLF showing that his offense, an offense that no longer runs through AR12’s filter, is capable of tempo and coordination and a good run/pass balance that makes use of multiple skill positions. 

"Not as good at blocking as the TEs." But you got the gist of it. 

There are a lot of reasons that Deguara isn't getting the reps, I talked about some of them above, but one I didn't mention is that we just aren't playing the Shannahan offense that you basically need to run in order to maximize the impact of your FB. The offense we've been running for the past several years is a modified version of that offense with a healthy dose of the Rodgers offense. And it became more heavily Rodgers oriented as the years went on. When things like personnel grouping and predictability are taken into account, you want to keep the best guys on the field. When Tonyan can do what Deguara can at 80% efficiency, it just isn't worth the sub. 

The other thing is that even Juszczyk isn't as good as people think Juszczyk is. Juszczyk only had 19 receptions and 7 rushes on the year. Admittedly those 19 receptions came on 23 targets and led to 9first downs, and 5 of those 7 rushes led to first downs, but would anybody really be jacked about Deguara if he was averaging less than 1 first down per game and had 2 TDs on the year? Probably not. 

[MrBobGray]

20 hours ago, AlexGreen#20 said:

"Not as good at blocking as the TEs." But you got the gist of it. 

There are a lot of reasons that Deguara isn't getting the reps, I talked about some of them above, but one I didn't mention is that we just aren't playing the Shannahan offense that you basically need to run in order to maximize the impact of your FB. The offense we've been running for the past several years is a modified version of that offense with a healthy dose of the Rodgers offense. And it became more heavily Rodgers oriented as the years went on. When things like personnel grouping and predictability are taken into account, you want to keep the best guys on the field. When Tonyan can do what Deguara can at 80% efficiency, it just isn't worth the sub. 

The other thing is that even Juszczyk isn't as good as people think Juszczyk is. Juszczyk only had 19 receptions and 7 rushes on the year. Admittedly those 19 receptions came on 23 targets and led to 9first downs, and 5 of those 7 rushes led to first downs, but would anybody really be jacked about Deguara if he was averaging less than 1 first down per game and had 2 TDs on the year? Probably not. 

I'd agree with essentially all of this, especially regarding the identity of the offense under Rodgers.  The offense really oriented toward spread principles over the years since 2019 and away from a lot of what makes the Shanahan offense go.  If they move back toward more pre-snap motion and making the wide zone their staple, Deguara has a lot more value.  That high level open space blocking that you mention gets a lot more play in that offense, but maybe more importantly it's a force multiplier for likely the offense's best players next year (Jones and Watson) admittedly to different degrees.  The better the run and reverse games are, the less of a load Love has to carry and the less attention defenses can devote solely to the passing offense.  You can get Deguara into space for those from a variety of looks and he's a reliable route runner who knows how to find space as a hot route/check down target. 

I'd be surprised if Deguara ended up with only 23 targets this year, I guess is my point, on top of what he brings in the stretch run game.  That doesn't mean he's an impact level player; frankly it would take a pretty unlikely confluence of things for him to be any kind of legitimate threat.  But teams are made up of role players too, and I love what Deguara brings as part of that transition team tasked with moving the offense from one built for Rodgers to one built for Love.

[craig]

Musgrave is getting lots of enthusiastic notes.  Including from the Love man himself.  It would be really cool if he was just, like, really good!  

I wonder how that will translate once pads go on?  

[Sandy]

13 hours ago, craig said:

Musgrave is getting lots of enthusiastic notes.  Including from the Love man himself.  It would be really cool if he was just, like, really good!  

I wonder how that will translate once pads go on?  

Based on his college tape he should have no difficulty acclimating to the receiving side of being an NFL TE.

650 yards and 7 tds this year.

[Chili]

Deguara was drafted to play the Juszczyk role for LaFleur. It's an important feature of Shanahan's offence and not surprisingly LaFleur wanted to implement it here but unfortunately for a number of reasons he never quite got going in the position he was drafted for.

In his first year he spent all of the off-season learning his trade at fullback as intended but then a few games in he tore his ACL and was out for the season.

The following year Tonyan was KO for the season fairly early on. Normally Sternberger would've stepped up but he was useless and Deguara had to learn TE on the fly. That's why he was able to put up some numbers as a receiver.

Last season was his first prolonged opportunity to play in the position he was drafted for and not surprisingly his numbers took a little hit. That's one half of the story, the other half is Rodgers was not utilising Deguara fully nor he was throwing very often over the middle. Rodgers always seems to be allergic to that particular area of the field.

This season Deguara has a real opportunity to be used as LaFleur intended with Love at QB. He should see an uptick of targets thrown his way especially with the rookie TEs and new QB still finding their feet. If used properly he will help keep the defence off balance not knowing if it's a rushing play or a passing play. He could block for the RB or he could block for the QB or he could peel off to make himself an receiving option or Love could call an audible and he can suddenly line up at TE/WR if he sees a mismatch opportunity. Rodgers avoiding the middle of the field undermined all of this. Can't fool defences this way. This is what Deguara was drafted for, to help make the Packers offence unpredictable. He's our swiss knife, that's why he our 3rd round pick.

Edited June 15, 2023 by Chili

[vegas492]

10 minutes ago, Chili said:

Deguara  He's our swiss knife

Nope.  At best he is our Crystal Farms Singles knife.

[Green19]

9 hours ago, vegas492 said:

Nope.  At best he is our Crystal Farms Singles knife.

I think to be fair… we don’t know what deguara is. He got injured early on in his career.

And the old QB never looked his way, or really at any TE.

So he can either boom or bust this year. At worse he is this teams FB.

Edited June 16, 2023 by Green19

[Brat&Beer]

27 minutes ago, Green19 said:

I think to be fair… we don’t know what deguara is. He got injured early on in his career.

And the old QB never looked his way, or really at any TE.

So he can either book or bust this year. At worse he is this teams FB.

I like his chances. I think he's finally going to be used in a way the Packers envisioned when they drafted him.

[Brat&Beer]

The QB and coach like Luke:

Quote

“First impression of Luke, he’s going to be a great player,” Love said Wednesday. “He’s a lot faster than anybody thought, on tape just watching him. He’s picking up the offense really fast, he’s getting a lot of reps right now, which is great for him. He’s making the most of it. Learning every day, not making the same mistake twice. And he’s catching the ball really well right now, he’s making plays.”

“Certainly, he does have an elite trait that he can flat fly,” LaFleur said in May. “He’s a really, really intelligent player….If he makes a mistake, he hasn’t made many of the same mistakes twice because he’s super into it. Very intentional. Deliberate about his work. Invested. He continues to show progress every day.”

 

[Spartacus]

I saw it on what little tape I had of him and glad so far it is translating. My favorite TE in this class. He is fast which is true but that is not what will make or break him in the NFL. He is one of the smoothest TEs I have watched and that short field quickness will serve him better then the long speed. Its lucky he got injured because I think he was due for a monster year after the first two games. 

[craig]

On Musgrave, I value the "really really intelligent" commentary, and that seems to get referenced anytime MLF mentions him.  Big advantage at any NFL position, and a big advantage in learning a complex position like TE as a rookie.  Lots easier for a coach to use a rookie who he trusts will remember instructions.