Who is the most overrated player in the NFL?

[ET80]

34 minutes ago, MaddHatter said:

35 minutes ago, AFlaccoSeagulls said:

Well considering Mahomes has only played for 6 seasons I fail to see how it's manipulating anything. Tom Brady didn't do it. Nobody has, only Mahomes, which is the entire point.

So go back to my other question - if Mahomes played for 10 more seasons (16 years total) and doesn't win another Ring, is he still GOAT / 2nd GOAT to Brady? 

I don't think we can look at this in a vacuum because SOMEONE is winning those rings - and while parity is there, this remains a Qb driven league, so it's going to be someone who is already looked at as a peer to Mahomes as-is.

TL;DR - if it's CJ Stroud winning 4 of those 10 SBs with three MVPs in that 10 year window, the projection obviously changes and the debate will (at minimum) include another name. Mahomes will still be in the conversation, but now it's a party of 3-4 as opposed to two.

It has nothing to do with what Mahomes did, but moreso to do with whoever surpassed him, y'know?

[MaddHatter]

6 minutes ago, ET80 said:

I don't think we can look at this in a vacuum because SOMEONE is winning those rings - and while parity is there, this remains a Qb driven league, so it's going to be someone who is already looked at as a peer to Mahomes as-is.

TL;DR - if it's CJ Stroud winning 4 of those 10 SBs with three MVPs in that 10 year window, the projection obviously changes and the debate will (at minimum) include another name. Mahomes will still be in the conversation, but now it's a party of 3-4 as opposed to two.

It has nothing to do with what Mahomes did, but moreso to do with whoever surpassed him, y'know?

So you're saying he's already the #2 GOAT or he's 1a/1b with Brady, as of right now?

My point was that Brady has 7 rings and 10 appearances - if Mahomes plays another 10 years and still only has 3 rings in 4 appearances over a 16 year career, is he still the 1a/1b with Brady assuming nobody else (CJ as your pointed out) has surpassed Brady at that point?   If Mahomes announces his retirement tomorrow and ever plays another down, is he the GOAT?  

 

That's what I'm trying to pull out of people.  Yes, he's on pace, yes he's having a GREAT career thus far, but he's still got another 10+ years to go before he can be seen from a historical perspective well enough to even be in the same conversation as Brady for GOAT.

[PossibleCabbage]

1 hour ago, elevators_rule said:

Where do you rank him? Top 10? Top 15? Top 20?

QBs I'd take over Purdy for one 2024 game (assuming everybody's health, not counting age or contract), in no particular order- Mahomes, Jackson, Allen, Tua, Stafford, Dak, Goff, Stroud, Love, Hurts, Cousins, Herbert, Lawrence, Burrow, Rodgers, Murray.

I'd put him in the same tier as Geno Smith, Baker Mayfield, Derek Carr, Daniel Jones, and Russell Wilson (Denver version).  You kind of know who he is and it's not terrible, so you'd probably take him over the guys who are still unknowns for next season (Richardson, Young, 2024 Watson).  But he's a lot closer to #20 than #15, IMO.

Now Purdy has the age and contract thing going for him.  But I'm not honestly convinced that Sam Darnold isn't a better quarterback (you just don't make the switch for reasons of locker room politics.)  I think there's a real chance that if Purdy has like a 4 week injury he gets Wally-Pipped though.  What the 49ers do with his contract is going to be very interesting since I don't think you can pay that guy $20m/year, let alone what the top QBs get paid.

The regression to the mean you would expect to see with Purdy would be that he has a lot of turnover-worthy plays that the defense fails to capitalize on, if DBs make more plays on the ball I'd expect you'd see a lot more interceptions.

Edited February 13 by PossibleCabbage

[Forge]

I am really curious how much Sam Darnold pays people to continue to prop up his ability 

[El Ramster]

Calling mahomes overrated should be an immediate 2 month ban. 
 

[Mr.UFO]

Mahomes is great, but last Sunday his offense scored 1 TD in regulation, and that was a 16 yard drive. It was like Brady's win in the Super Bowl against the Rams. In these quarterback obsessed times, great defenses never get the credit they deserve.

[elevators_rule]

3 minutes ago, PossibleCabbage said:

QBs I'd take over Purdy for one 2024 game (assuming everybody's health, not counting age or contract), in no particular order- Mahomes, Jackson, Allen, Tua, Stafford, Dak, Goff, Stroud, Love, Hurts, Cousins, Herbert, Lawrence, Burrow, Rodgers, Murray.

I'd put him in the same tier as Geno Smith, Baker Mayfield, Derek Carr, Daniel Jones, and Russell Wilson (Denver version).  You kind of know who he is and it's not terrible, so you'd probably take him over the guys who are still unknowns for next season (Richardson, Young, 2024 Watson).  But he's a lot closer to #20 than #15, IMO.

Now Purdy has the age and contract thing going for him.  But I'm not honestly convinced that Sam Darnold isn't a better quarterback (you just don't make the switch for reasons of locker room politics.)  I think there's a real chance that if Purdy has like a 4 week injury he gets Wally-Pipped though.  What the 49ers do with his contract is going to be very interesting since I don't think you can pay that guy $20m/year, let alone what the top QBs get paid.

I think I agreed with this mid-season. I wasn't a Purdy believer last year, and the first half of this year all the same. I assumed he was just having a Nick Foles style run. Great story of a QB, but punching above his weight. But he's really impressed me down the stretch.

I tried to make a list like you did, but found it pretty tough. I'll just say I'd have Purdy up at the top-ish of Tier 2 QBs. Tier 1 would be: Mahomes, Jackson, Allen, Burrow. (Mahomes is obv by himself, but for the sake I just lumped them all in). Everyone else in your, more or less, I think I'd take Purdy over or at the very least give it real consideration. There's a few outright that I don't even see the argument, either (such as Murray, Hurts, Goff, Dak and Cousins). I think Purdy just wins outright against them for me.

[Soko]

59 minutes ago, notthatbluestuff said:

But it’s certainly a fair conversation to compare their first six seasons as starters - why wouldn’t it be?

He’s not saying it’s unfair to compare their first six years. He’s saying it’s unfair to say Patrick Mahomes has already surpassed them in all time rankings. 

I doubt most people are doing it intentionally, but you’re presenting separate arguments.

Is it fair to compare their first X number of years? Yes.

Is it fair to talk about, be excited about, and maybe even expect Mahomes to shatter everything we’ve ever thought of as far as QB accomplishments go? Yes.

Is it fair to recognize, praise, and be hyped about the greatest start to a career in NFL history? Yes.

Is it fair to say and believe that Mahomes might be the most talented, and maybe best player of all time? Yes. 

Is it fair to say he’s surpassed Joe Montana and Tom Brady in all time QB rankings? Nah, it’s too early. 

People are conflating the last question with the rest of them. Brady fought tooth and nail to pass Montana, and plenty of people never even fully hopped on board until he won his 7th in Tampa. Take it from a Patriots fan. “Montana was perfect, 4-0>6-2”, “Montana played in a tougher era”, “Brady is a system QB”. The last is particularly hilarious given the 180 the general fans have done on that + Bill was never an offensive coach in the first place, but that’s a separate topic. 

I wouldn’t call Mahomes overrated, I do think we’re watching the future GOAT in his prime right now, but he hasn’t earned the title yet, as some have granted. Playing the “hey can’t we at least compare the starts of their careers?” as if that’s been the discussion all along, is disingenuous.

[Mazrimiv]

21 minutes ago, PossibleCabbage said:

QBs I'd take over Purdy for one 2024 game (assuming everybody's health, not counting age or contract), in no particular order- Mahomes, Jackson, Allen, Tua, Stafford, Dak, Goff, Stroud, Love, Hurts, Cousins, Herbert, Lawrence, Burrow, Rodgers, Murray.

I'd put him in the same tier as Geno Smith, Baker Mayfield, Derek Carr, Daniel Jones, and Russell Wilson (Denver version).  You kind of know who he is and it's not terrible, so you'd probably take him over the guys who are still unknowns for next season (Richardson, Young, 2024 Watson).  But he's a lot closer to #20 than #15, IMO.

Now Purdy has the age and contract thing going for him.  But I'm not honestly convinced that Sam Darnold isn't a better quarterback (you just don't make the switch for reasons of locker room politics.)  I think there's a real chance that if Purdy has like a 4 week injury he gets Wally-Pipped though.  What the 49ers do with his contract is going to be very interesting since I don't think you can pay that guy $20m/year, let alone what the top QBs get paid.

The regression to the mean you would expect to see with Purdy would be that he has a lot of turnover-worthy plays that the defense fails to capitalize on, if DBs make more plays on the ball I'd expect you'd see a lot more interceptions.

To some degree, I can understand fans with lingering doubts about Purdy as a franchise QB.  But being Wally Pipped by Sam Darnold?  Cmon.  That isn't happening.

[Soko]

26 minutes ago, PossibleCabbage said:

Now Purdy has the age and contract thing going for him.  But I'm not honestly convinced that Sam Darnold isn't a better quarterback 

[notthatbluestuff]

11 minutes ago, Soko said:

He’s not saying it’s unfair to compare their first six years. He’s saying it’s unfair to say Patrick Mahomes has already surpassed them in all time rankings. 

Perhaps you missed it but I was replying to this very specific point: 

Quote

Name me another player with 3 SB wins in their first 4 seasons - I mean by this thought process we can just manipulate time periods to get whatever advantage we want.   From 2015-2021, name another player with 3SB MVP's.  

 

This is suggesting that it's somehow arbitrary or manipulative to compare their first six seasons specifically. Isn't it?

Quote

Playing the “hey can’t we at least compare the starts of their careers?” as if that’s been the discussion all along, is disingenuous.

I'm not saying it's been the discussion all along. I was disputing the point that later arose.

[Soko]

1 minute ago, notthatbluestuff said:

Perhaps you missed it but I was replying to this very specific point: 

This is suggesting that it's somehow arbitrary or manipulative to compare their first six seasons specifically. Isn't it?

I'm not saying it's been the discussion all along. I was disputing the point that later arose.

Thanks for clarifying. I read the first post he made and perused after that. 

The “arbitrary” point was a dumb one. I think the better point would’ve been that Brady established his greatness more so in the second half of his career that Mahomes hasn’t physically reached yet, including winning with different cores of players.

[notthatbluestuff]

1 minute ago, Soko said:

Thanks for clarifying. I read the first post he made and perused after that. 

The “arbitrary” point was a dumb one. I think the better point would’ve been that Brady established his greatness more so in the second half of his career that Mahomes hasn’t physically reached yet, including winning with different cores of players.

Well, what would you consider a different core? Completely different players, I assume? It's worth noting that people said he wouldn't be able to win or even be great without Hill - then he did (and won MVP too). After that, it was said that he needed Kelce to be elite. I think most would agree that Kelce took a step back this season and yet the result is the same. Of course, this was by far the best defense Mahomes has had, which also can't be ignored.

[Soko]

Just now, notthatbluestuff said:

Well, what would you consider a different core? Completely different players, I assume? It's worth noting that people said he wouldn't be able to win or even be great without Hill - then he did (and won MVP too). After that, it was said that he needed Kelce to be elite. I think most would agree that Kelce took a step back this season and yet the result is the same. Of course, this was by far the best defense Mahomes has had, which also can't be ignored.

There’ll always be detractors. Like I said, I already believe we’re watching the future GOAT, so it’s not like I’m going to argue against it.

A different core of players, I would consider Troy Brown, David Patten, Antowain Smith, and then Deion Branch, David Patten, Daniel Graham, and Corey Dillon, and then Rob Gronkowski, Sony Michel, Julian Edelman, and Chris Hogan. 15+ years apart.

Like I said, in that respect, they’re physically not comparable, due to age. But that + the consistency to do it for that many years, is almost all that’s separating them. Then again, Mahomes isn’t being anchored down by what many consider to be one of the most overrated head coaches and worst GMs…

If Brady retired six or even twelve years into his career, no one is putting him over Montana. Not even Peyton, at that time. The greatness didn’t get accepted until the second half. I expect Mahomes to continue on his track and prove that, but he still needs to actually do it before just pretending it’s happened already.

[Dash]

It did take ten years for Brady and the Patriots to win another super bowl after their third.