Justin Fields

[Epyon]

3 hours ago, Madmike90 said:

On the back of  @AkronsWitness question about consensus I thought it would be interesting to pose this questions with a view of working this from top to bottom...

Is there anyone who doesn't have at least a comfort level if not confidence in Ryan Poles to make the right decision regardless of which way this thing goes? 

Poles has shown himself to be measured with contracts, and his overall gm body of work has us on the right path. 

...BUT, I can't ignore that he missed Stroud last year, or that his draft record is pretty spotty, particularly on the offensive side of the ball. Velus and Scott are both complete non factors. 

This draft, and subsequent years showing how it went, are what will define his career. 

I wouldn't say either Poles or this franchise has earned a "comfort level" regarding entrusting them to handle the qb situation right. It's up to them to prove they can do the job. 

For my money, Fields needs to go, and between Fields, Caleb, Maye, and Daniels, I'll take Caleb. 

Edited December 27, 2023 by Epyon

[Madmike90]

2 minutes ago, Epyon said:

Poles has shown himself to be measured with contracts, and his overall gm body of work has us on the right path. 

...BUT, I can't ignore that he missed Stroud last year, or that his draft record is pretty spotty, particularly on the offensive side of the ball. Velus and Scott are both complete non factors. 

This draft, and subsequent years showing how it went, are what will define his career. 

I wouldn't say either Poles or this franchise has earned a "comfort level" regarding entrusting them to handle the qb situation right. It's up to them to prove they can do the job. 

For my money, Fields needs to go, and between Fields, Caleb, Maye, and Daniels, I'll take Caleb. 

I couldn't disagree more...his drafting his been really good IMO...no GM is hitting on every player...this isn't madden...

Also the "missed on Stroud" argument isn't really a thing...the VAST majority of teams had Young higher than Stroud and I don't doubt had we stuck at #1 we would have taken Young...Poles was smart enough to leverage that into a haul.

[G08]

2 hours ago, Madmike90 said:

 

What's great about what Laurence Holmes said there is that it jives with what Ryan Poles said on Sunday before the game:
 

Maybe he's seeing it too, I don't know.

[beardown3231]

3 hours ago, StLunatic88 said:

Well, Mooney hasnt returned to what he was even in early 2022 after the injury. And definitely not to the great #2 that he was with Robinson. Pretty sure thats what we were projecting Fields to have at his disposal, not this shell of himself that is barely better than a Day 3 Rookie and a 2nd year Bust.

WHOEVER the QB for 2024 is, will need much more than what we are trotting out there right now

Or maybe like most offensive players who show just a smidge of promise in this city, we overrate them because we don't know what true, good skill players look like?

Mooney's production was always a product of having really nobody else around him. Now that Moore's here, Fields isn't looking his way even close to as much

Of course the new QB will need more talent, but this thought of signing a good WR + using a top 5 pick on a WR to show how good Fields is, to me, seems backwards. Maybe he should be making some of these guys better like top QB's do

Side note: do you truly believe they'll take Maye over Williams?

Edited December 28, 2023 by beardown3231

[Epyon]

1 hour ago, Madmike90 said:

I couldn't disagree more...his drafting his been really good IMO...no GM is hitting on every player...this isn't madden...

Also the "missed on Stroud" argument isn't really a thing...the VAST majority of teams had Young higher than Stroud and I don't doubt had we stuck at #1 we would have taken Young...Poles was smart enough to leverage that into a haul.

It's absolutely a thing. The guy is getting paid millions to make decisions for the franchise, and he had the chance to take Stroud and kept running with Fields. At least for this year, that was a gigantic mistake. You don't get to miss on the most important position. 

Idgaf if the rest of the universe had Young higher, he's paid to make the right call on that decision and we missed a chance to draft a QB because he didn't make it. He doesn't get a pass on that anymore than all the people who liked Mitch over Mahomes, even with the eventual good trade for the first this year and Moore (unless the plan even last year was targeting this year's qb class, in which case the evaluation is on whoever he picks and how they perform). 

[Madmike90]

24 minutes ago, Epyon said:

It's absolutely a thing. The guy is getting paid millions to make decisions for the franchise, and he had the chance to take Stroud and kept running with Fields. At least for this year, that was a gigantic mistake. You don't get to miss on the most important position. 

Idgaf if the rest of the universe had Young higher, he's paid to make the right call on that decision and we missed a chance to draft a QB because he didn't make it. He doesn't get a pass on that anymore than all the people who liked Mitch over Mahomes, even with the eventual good trade for the first this year and Moore (unless the plan even last year was targeting this year's qb class, in which case the evaluation is on whoever he picks and how they perform). 

[G08]

"[Eberflus] gave me a thing that said, ‘200,’ which is two touchdowns, no sacks, no turnovers," Fields said Wednesday at Halas Hall. "That’s pretty much my goal every game. Sacks, they put us behind the sticks, of course, and you never want to turn the ball over to give the other team a short field. So definitely trying to avoid the turnovers and sacks."

[BeaReylo]

1 hour ago, Madmike90 said:

 

 

[Epyon]

2 hours ago, Madmike90 said:

It's not hindsight, it's literally the guy's job to evaluate talent BEFORE he makes a damn pick. It's foresight....   The results after the fact are merely how you measure his foresight.

And his foresight offensively at the positions we need hasn't been super confidence inspiring as of yet. Velus is terrible, and you'd have to be reminded Tyler Scott exists to even know he's on the team.  We did OK finding a backup in Bagent (but even as someone who was banging the drum to see what Bagent had before Fields got hurt, his arm strength honestly isn't really NFL level), but he doesn't get a pass for missing on Stroud unless Stroud regresses into a bust.

The single most important position on the entire field is the QB.... and having a franchise QB is worth 3x DJ Moores.

[AZBearsFan]

6 hours ago, beardown3231 said:

Of course the new QB will need more talent, but this thought of signing a good WR + using a top 5 pick on a WR to show how good Fields is, to me, seems backwards. Maybe he should be making some of these guys better like top QB's do

Look at the barometer guys everyone used for Fields before the season: Does Allen make Diggs better, or was it the other way around? Does AJ Brown make Hurts better? In fact, which “top QBs” are obviously making the guys around them notably better in 2023 rather than those guys making the QB better? Not Mahomes (though he has in the past). Not Purdy. Not Tua. Not Hurts. Not Goff. Not Dak. Not Lawrence. Lamar? Not really. His passing stats aren’t great. Is Mayfield good now, or is his upswing in 2023 the product of having Evans and Godwin? Herbert? I don’t think so. Every one of those guys has gotten better as more talent was brought in around them. 

Point being, the QBs who raise the floor for everyone the way Brady/Manning/Brees/Rodgers did are the exceptions to the rule. Fielding a strong team around the QB is, by far, easier than identifying the unicorns at QB. Expanding the talent around Fields beyond 2023 with top tier prospects while eventually needing to pay Fields (if he excels with more around him) from a cost standpoint isn't nearly the concern everyone makes it out to be when compared to having a rookie deal QB with expensive top tier skill guys around him:

$40-45M QB +$16M WR (Moore) + $6M WR (1st round WR) + $12M TE (Kmet) = $74-79M

$10M QB + $16M WR (Moore) + $23M WR (Higgins via FA) + $12M TE (Kmet) = $61M

$13-18M isn’t chump change, but if you’re intent on building through the draft (which Poles says he is and has been thus far) plus you’re starting from a very healthy cap position (we are both in cap space and lack of bad contracts on the roster after Whitehair and Jackson are presumably cut post-2023) it’s very manageable. The difference cost-wise between the two examples is essentially us drafting replacements for Lucas Patrick and/or Eddie Jackson vs. signing the top ones in FA, and if we are choosing the option that adds draft capital while keeping Fields we’ll have more swings at the top of the draft to be able to offset any misses there not only in 2024 but almost certainly in 2025 and possibly in 2026 as well. 

[Madmike90]

6 hours ago, Epyon said:

It's not hindsight, it's literally the guy's job to evaluate talent BEFORE he makes a damn pick. It's foresight....   The results after the fact are merely how you measure his foresight.

And his foresight offensively at the positions we need hasn't been super confidence inspiring as of yet. Velus is terrible, and you'd have to be reminded Tyler Scott exists to even know he's on the team.  We did OK finding a backup in Bagent (but even as someone who was banging the drum to see what Bagent had before Fields got hurt, his arm strength honestly isn't really NFL level), but he doesn't get a pass for missing on Stroud unless Stroud regresses into a bust.

The single most important position on the entire field is the QB.... and having a franchise QB is worth 3x DJ Moores.

The hindsight is more for you my friend…no one expected Stroud to be this good this early (jury is always still out after season 1) there is a reason you see so many first round busts and late round studs…scouting is no exact science and judging any GM on players he didn’t take makes zero sense…not only that but it’s the old Mahomes argument with Stroud…he landed in the perfect situation…bring him here and he probably sucks.

[StLunatic88]

3 hours ago, Madmike90 said:

The hindsight is more for you my friend…no one expected Stroud to be this good this early (jury is always still out after season 1) there is a reason you see so many first round busts and late round studs…scouting is no exact science and judging any GM on players he didn’t take makes zero sense…not only that but it’s the old Mahomes argument with Stroud…he landed in the perfect situation…bring him here and he probably sucks.

Not to mention, unless CJ Stroud is atleast Donovan McNabb (I.e. a top QB of the decade) the trade of that possibility of that one player is outweighed by getting a Top 10 WR, a possible cornerstone Tackle AND a Top 2 pick the following year (plus more)

Saying “how did we stick with Fields over Stroud” is the epitome of knee jerk hindsight, and honestly just foolish as it’s ignoring what actually happened

[StLunatic88]

13 hours ago, beardown3231 said:

Mooney's production was always a product of having really nobody else around him. Now that Moore's here, Fields isn't looking his way even close to as much

I’d argue the complete opposite. Mooney showed out best when he had a better WR across from him (Allen Robinson) and when he was slotted into the spot of the guy, he actually regressed, which is what led to the desperation move for Claypool, since the Free Agent market for a wideout was so bleak. 
 

@AZBearsFan covered your next bullet point pretty well, I’ll only add, we as Football fans have been so spoiled for the past 13-20 years with the level of QB play in the league. We watched probably 3 of the Top 7 QBs ever, and likely somewhere around 10 of the Top 25. Those all timers are the only ones who actually “elevate” the talent around them. That’s what makes them all timers. As he pointed out, I’m not sure we have a single one of those guys left in the league. (Maybe a healthy Rodgers?) Do I think that Fields should be using what he has better? Yes, but trying to pin this thing that only like 5/6 QBs ever have done on anyone is just trying to manufacture a negative against them. 

13 hours ago, beardown3231 said:

Side note: do you truly believe they'll take Maye over Williams?

I think if we would bring in Frank Reich specifically, it would signal that we are going with Maye. He is the prototype of what he looks for in a QB. That kind of move would also mean some other longer term ramifications that I don’t think most are around here are ready to talk about.

As far as Caleb v Drake, I do think if we were going to draft a new QB, Maye makes more sense for the Bears, mostly because Fields and Williams are much closer in what they bring you than most want to admit right now. The real “separator” between JF/CW is just the contract reset. And to me that’s not a good reason 

[G08]

18 hours ago, JibjeResearch said:

We were up 10+ points on 3 games and we lost all 3 in the 4th quarter!  That is coaching issues! 

There's a lot behind it:

• This is a young team still learning how to win
• This offense does not know how to close out games, you can blame Getsy/Fields/offensive talent
• The defense is still rounding into form, I feel they were too passive against Denver and Detroit and too aggressive against Cleveland. Once we find that happy medium, or add another pass rusher and not rely on blitzing as much, we should be in a good spot

People have to remember, we were the worst team in the NFL last season (record, points allowed, bottom 2 in run defense, etc). In one season we have become the best run defense in the league, second in interceptions, etc.

Any way you want to dice it, that is incredible. 

[beardown3231]

2 hours ago, StLunatic88 said:

I’d argue the complete opposite. Mooney showed out best when he had a better WR across from him (Allen Robinson) and when he was slotted into the spot of the guy, he actually regressed, which is what led to the desperation move for Claypool, since the Free Agent market for a wideout was so bleak. 
 

@AZBearsFan covered your next bullet point pretty well, I’ll only add, we as Football fans have been so spoiled for the past 13-20 years with the level of QB play in the league. We watched probably 3 of the Top 7 QBs ever, and likely somewhere around 10 of the Top 25. Those all timers are the only ones who actually “elevate” the talent around them. That’s what makes them all timers. As he pointed out, I’m not sure we have a single one of those guys left in the league. (Maybe a healthy Rodgers?) Do I think that Fields should be using what he has better? Yes, but trying to pin this thing that only like 5/6 QBs ever have done on anyone is just trying to manufacture a negative against them. 

I think if we would bring in Frank Reich specifically, it would signal that we are going with Maye. He is the prototype of what he looks for in a QB. That kind of move would also mean some other longer term ramifications that I don’t think most are around here are ready to talk about.

As far as Caleb v Drake, I do think if we were going to draft a new QB, Maye makes more sense for the Bears, mostly because Fields and Williams are much closer in what they bring you than most want to admit right now. The real “separator” between JF/CW is just the contract reset. And to me that’s not a good reason 

Williams is a far better passer than Fields, too

I do agree about Maye though. I think he's closer to Williams than most think (my comp is Herbert mixed with some Cutler) and I also think he *fits* into this team more