Justin Fields

[dafreak]

47 minutes ago, Old Guy said:

The biggest issue I would have in keeping Fields is his 3rd offensive coordinator in 4 years. He's having to start all over again in a new offense. New terminology and everything that goes with that including the growing pains. 

Those things are quarterback killers. Not sure that gives him a fair chance next year. Also, if you're keeping him, you are tagging him. 

True but no matter where he goes it will be his 3rd offensive coordinator in 4 years....A rookie will be learning a new system too so it still comes down to who Poles identify's as the best QB moving forward.

[AZBearsFan]

1 hour ago, Old Guy said:

The biggest issue I would have in keeping Fields is his 3rd offensive coordinator in 4 years. He's having to start all over again in a new offense. New terminology and everything that goes with that including the growing pains. 

Those things are quarterback killers. Not sure that gives him a fair chance next year. Also, if you're keeping him, you are tagging him. 

It’s not ideal, but at the same time Lamar Jackson, Justin Herbert, CJ Stroud, Derek Carr, Baker Mayfield and I’m pretty sure Dak Prescott all ran in new offenses this year from that which they ran in 2022 and were all as productive statistically if not more so in 2023 than in 2022.

We really need to stop using the “new offense” thing like it’s making the QB play with a blindfold on. Specific to our case, a new offense that is actually intuitive and plays to the strengths of personnel and plays with some semblance of play calling rhythm and creativity for all 4 quarters of a game consistently should be an immediate boost even to a QB who’s new to it.

[Madmike90]

 

Well that is an interesting twist.

[AZBearsFan]

3 minutes ago, Madmike90 said:

 

Well that is an interesting twist.

Meh. What negative would Riley have to say about his handpicked QB that followed him from OU to USC and won a Heisman there, even if there was negative stuff to say? It only hurts Riley on the recruiting trail if dirt on CW that would have had to come from him or someone close to him gets out there. He’d probably say CW was the greatest person and hardest worker even if it wasn’t true.

[Madmike90]

6 minutes ago, AZBearsFan said:

Meh. What negative would Riley have to say about his handpicked QB that followed him from OU to USC and won a Heisman there, even if there was negative stuff to say? It only hurts Riley on the recruiting trail if dirt on CW that would have had to come from him or someone close to him gets out there. He’d probably say CW was the greatest person and hardest worker even if it wasn’t true.

I'll be honest I couldn't care less about Lincoln's opinion because I completely agree with you...I find it more interesting if Caleb ends up with the same agent as the two guys...I still prefer to stick with Fields because I can see where the position is going but that is just another wrinkle in the process.

[dll2000]

1 hour ago, AZBearsFan said:

Meh. What negative would Riley have to say about his handpicked QB that followed him from OU to USC and won a Heisman there, even if there was negative stuff to say? It only hurts Riley on the recruiting trail if dirt on CW that would have had to come from him or someone close to him gets out there. He’d probably say CW was the greatest person and hardest worker even if it wasn’t true.

I talked to a lot of college coaches and a few pro coaches at glazier clinics back in day.  

They are generally pretty frank about whatever behind closed doors and in private as long as you aren’t a media person.  

They will tell you this dude was a blank willow or that dude was a killer.  Or that dude was dumb as a box of rocks.  That guy was smartest kid I ever coached, etc.

[StLunatic88]

28 minutes ago, dll2000 said:

I talked to a lot of college coaches and a few pro coaches at glazier clinics back in day.  

Im not sure Coaches are that open about "their guy" though. Especially the new age coaches, like Riley.

Who knows though

[Old Guy]

2 hours ago, dafreak said:

True but no matter where he goes it will be his 3rd offensive coordinator in 4 years....A rookie will be learning a new system too so it still comes down to who Poles identify's as the best QB moving forward.

 

2 hours ago, AZBearsFan said:

It’s not ideal, but at the same time Lamar Jackson, Justin Herbert, CJ Stroud, Derek Carr, Baker Mayfield and I’m pretty sure Dak Prescott all ran in new offenses this year from that which they ran in 2022 and were all as productive statistically if not more so in 2023 than in 2022.

We really need to stop using the “new offense” thing like it’s making the QB play with a blindfold on. Specific to our case, a new offense that is actually intuitive and plays to the strengths of personnel and plays with some semblance of play calling rhythm and creativity for all 4 quarters of a game consistently should be an immediate boost even to a QB who’s new to it.

All rookies learn a new system. Which is why so many of them struggle. Justin Fields has shown he has problems processing information on the field. Things were starting to finally click, You are going to put him right back to where he was at the beginning of the year. 

Caleb Williams followed Lincoln Riley from Oklahoma to USC. IF you think you are going to get any information from him other than rainbows and unicorns, you are mistaken IMO. 

[Sugashane]

33 minutes ago, Old Guy said:

 

All rookies learn a new system. Which is why so many of them struggle. Justin Fields has shown he has problems processing information on the field. Things were starting to finally click, You are going to put him right back to where he was at the beginning of the year.

I think the initial complexity of learning an NFL offense is more difficult than a professional adjusting to a new one. It's way more complex than the stupid signs and trio of guys doing hand signs. My freshman year of college my head was spinning learning the calls and plays, but when my coach left for a bigger job the new coach came in and the learning curve wasnt near as steep. Completely different offense, different terminology, everything. But we had a foundation already built to go off of.

That and the amount of prep time (needed for them and spent against them) and professional level skill all against them makes it way harder too. 'College open' is often just a broken coverage in the NFL, and so many guys that are top WRs in college are going against future marketing managers and office professionals. Windows are smaller, reads need to be faster, balls need to be more precise to avoid defenders, etc.

That being said there are offenses of differing levels of complexity and playcallers who are just as varied in competency and adaptability. Obviously I don't want Fields to run the Greatest Show on Turf since he isn't the fastest processor like you mentioned. He would fail miserably most likely with that. I still think if you are rolling with him then Roman is the best fit just because he has worked with Jackson and Kaep, and Fields as a passer is in between them and just as fast as Jackson.

Getsy being an idiot found a formula that worked then said, "Nah, I worked with him this offseason. I bet he can be a pure pocket passer now," and got away from what worked with him. That was ignorance or hubris at an extreme level, likely a mix.

I would have moved on but I get if they don't. Its way easier for me to bail on him since I didn't invest anything but my real-time imaginary pick on him. lol

[refundmytickets]

Fields was very good at scripted plays. To me that's significant:

A. Getsy was good at scripting the 1st drive but had no feel for calling plays after that

B. Fields was good at operating scripted plays because he had rehearsed them over-and-over and streamlined his decision-making

C. Getsy/Fields were not good at countering once a defense adjusted off their initial look

[dll2000]

1 hour ago, StLunatic88 said:

Im not sure Coaches are that open about "their guy" though. Especially the new age coaches, like Riley.

Who knows though

This was before smart phones, youtube and twitter too.  So I guess what was once true, probably isn't anymore now that I think about it.  

They would talk to me if we were just chatting after the clinic and tell me stuff back in day if I asked.  

Coaches are remarkably open people on football topics and love talking ball.  There are no scheme secrets.   They will diagram a play and all its reads for if you just asked and they have time.  Not even knowing you.  I got invited to attend various practices and meetings at local colleges - I wish I could have done it all.   But I had other obligations.  

But I still think GMs and Coaches can build some trust and get some honest opinions and I think that happens.

  Minute you violate that trust with one guy it would be lost for everyone.  So they would guard it and not be stupid.  

 

[AZBearsFan]

45 minutes ago, refundmytickets said:

Fields was very good at scripted plays. To me that's significant:

A. Getsy was good at scripting the 1st drive but had no feel for calling plays after that

B. Fields was good at operating scripted plays because he had rehearsed them over-and-over and streamlined his decision-making

C. Getsy/Fields were not good at countering once a defense adjusted off their initial look

FWIW, watching Fields make the off script plays where he’s ad libbing week in and week out speaks to the contrary of the whole “he can’t process info quickly” narrative, does it not? 

[refundmytickets]

23 minutes ago, AZBearsFan said:

FWIW, watching Fields make the off script plays where he’s ad libbing week in and week out speaks to the contrary of the whole “he can’t process info quickly” narrative, does it not? 

I break things into 3 areas:

1. Making pre-snap reads
2. Making post-snap reads within structure
3. Making instinctive decisions outside structure

Fields is great at #3. He's not good at the others. We've all seen this over his career. The longer and more chaotic the play, the more natural he looks.

I'm not convinced you can build an offense around that ability alone. So if you're trying to win with Fields, he needs to play faster. That means speeding up his dropback, his release, his processing, etc. He's a great athlete who excels at playing backyard football. You need to turn him into a pro QB who uses those athletic qualities when they're necessary.

[AZBearsFan]

1 hour ago, refundmytickets said:

I break things into 3 areas:

1. Making pre-snap reads
2. Making post-snap reads within structure
3. Making instinctive decisions outside structure

Fields is great at #3. He's not good at the others. We've all seen this over his career. The longer and more chaotic the play, the more natural he looks.

I'm not convinced you can build an offense around that ability alone. So if you're trying to win with Fields, he needs to play faster. That means speeding up his dropback, his release, his processing, etc. He's a great athlete who excels at playing backyard football. You need to turn him into a pro QB who uses those athletic qualities when they're necessary.

I think especially in the second half of the season we saw a lot more of the first two. Not to the point of a grizzled veteran, but certainly noteworthy improvement. Early in the season, especially in the first month, there were a lot of “Just throw it!” moments. After Justin came back from the thumb injury those were far less common. There were some for sure, but every QB has some of those sometimes.

Specifically with regard to #2, a lot of the all 22 cut ups showed that many of the post-snap things you’d want him to be able to get to just weren’t available within given plays. I’m talking about plays with only deep routes, personnel unable to get open, no blitz beater options other than his legs, etc. When all the options within the read are bad ones (far more frequently the case than it should have been) Fields didn’t have a choice but to jump quickly from 1 to 3. Those are the things that are unquestionably coaching issues IMO and are ones you can reasonably expect to improve with a more capable play caller. There was so much talk about Fields getting better at taking the gimmes when they’re there last offseason. What’s supposed to happen when those aren’t there to be had?

[StLunatic88]

14 minutes ago, AZBearsFan said:

a lot of the all 22 cut ups showed that many of the post-snap things you’d want him to be able to get to just weren’t available within given plays. I’m talking about plays with only deep routes, personnel unable to get open, no blitz beater options other than his legs, etc

I'll admit, 5/6 weeks ago I was fully out on JF. I just couldnt take the perceived indecision over and over. But since then, a few things have happened;

1. Not only did he play better down the stretch (Sans W18, the OL was a complete mess) but he has been revealed to be one of the better Locker Room Leaders around, and if not 'best', one that guys are currently most vocal about. Those things matter to a winning team. And theres a major chance that a rookie would be a severe step back in that area alone.
2. I actually got a chance to look at some of the All-22, and what I was thinking was always indecision and double clutching, was more often than not just absolutely no one being open. Was that due to bad route concepts, wrong routes, guys just not able to get open? Im not sure on alot of that, I dont know what was called and what not, but I can see they arent open. Thats hard to put on Fields, especially when we are so harsh on him for turnovers his entire career so far.
3. Guys who I very much respect (Chase Daniel and Chris long to name a couple) still see it with Justin Fields. And I can absolutely admit that they know WAY more than I do when it comes to the Xs & Os. They see it, they see the growth this year amidst all the garbage (bad coaching, lack of talented weapons, OL failing him) and have said Recently that he can be the guy, that the Bears can win with him. Daniel breaks down the plays, Long breaks down the situation very well in their recent videos/podcasts. 

Those things have me back around to keeping Fields again. But Im only there because I dont see a sure fire thing at QB in this draft. None of them truely are, Trevor Lawrence was The Savior prospect, and he is struggling three years in with a respected offensive mind at ther helm and a treasure trove of Offensive Weapons. The immediate floors of these guys in this draft (Williams/Maye) could be SO LOW, and not even because of ability or physical traits (which I also have questions on both) but on the other side we KNOW what Fields floor is, and you can win with that floor, assuming you limit the TOs. But from there, I still think there is still massive potential in Justin Fields to unlock, and someone who isnt the most paint by numbers OC should be able to tap into atleast SOME of that. 

There clearly isnt an obvious answer to this, so the only wrong answer is pretending that there is. But I would posit, if we had pick #4 instead of 1.1 in the Carolina trade, we wouldnt even be talking about other QB prospects, especially with how Justin did in the second half of the season, especially with what has to be a better OC on their way in. Maybe Im getting blinded by the haul that back to back trades of 1.1 can do to revitalize a franchise, but to me building the roster more than just a QB is the better path to follow at this point. We can pay 9one way or another) for a QB later, you dont always get this chance to change the entirety of a roster you just tore to the studs 20ish months ago.