Week 11 GDT: Bears vs. Lions

[beardown3231]

56 minutes ago, Sugashane said:

Honestly I'm just impressed you played this long before the Bears broke you. If it wasn't for the power to edit trolls' posts or merge threads idk if I'd even be here right now.

Once the Bears get two 1's, two 2's, a 5 and three players for Fields, my faith will be restored

[Sugashane]

59 minutes ago, beardown3231 said:

Once the Bears get two 1's, two 2's, a 5 and three players for Fields, my faith will be restored

Between that, getting a 2nd for Flubby in a trade and a 3rd for Getsy the Bears are gonna be loaded with picks.

[topwop1]

4 hours ago, SLCbear said:

I would just say trust your eyes  !

 political grapevines have all sorts of agendas 😉  

 I like Jahn too and Hoge, both sharp guys  but no way Flus survives. Its more likely this perceived vote of confidence is a PEAce keeping mission that keeps the Ls piling up while having a perfect scapegoat in Flus following the season, and not axing him now. He really is a lovely man  ! but has no business being an NFL HC

 No WAY Warren is watching this ****show and not already making plans

We don't really know what influence Warren has yet on these types of decisions and none of us can really be certain of anything at this point

Slim chance, but what if Bears go on a heater to end the season by ripping off 4-5 wins ...what happens then?

I know that wouldn't really change the minds of the majority of ppl who think that Flus should be fired but you don't think something like that would matter to Poles and the higher ups?

i just think it's premature to say anything at this point is a given 

[SLCbear]

6 hours ago, Bigbear72 said:

Wait. What?

I believe that with proper coaching and another elite weapon, JF can easily reach Russ level 

AND Russell Wilson was traded at age 32  ! JF will be 25/26 in my proposed trade timeline. RW also had over a decade of wear and tear on his body at the time of his trade.  RW is also an Ahole and not liked by his teammates. 

If JF had Pete Carroll and the roster that RW went to those superbowls with, why couldn't he have the same kind of success ?? Rw is 5'11 215, JF 6'3 230, both have great deep balls, JF is far superior runner, RW at the moment is a better processor, but one can easily argue that RW is not a great processor after seeing him operate last season wo Carroll and  while surrounded with poor coaching scheme execution. 

 How is RW far superior to JF ?? JF much younger, much better human being, much more athletic 

If WE get proper coaching scheme execution around JF and he takes a developmental leap, we can start to expect something similar to a RW trade return for him. JF has never had anything CLOSE to great coaching and scheme ! I am holding out hope that proper coaching scheme execution can unlock remaining on field potential 

JFs floor is a starting level NFL qb which is worth a late FRP, hopefully real coaching scheme execution can take him to RW level or beyond. HOPEFULLY this happens, but if not JF ultimately falls somewhere between this floor and ceiling, netting us a premium pick or 2. 

 

 

Edited November 21, 2023 by SLCbear

[SLCbear]

5 hours ago, Sugashane said:

I'd get punched in the face for 80 degree weather right now.

only needy toxic curmudgeon AHoles and their spider girlfriends  get blocked  

 People that aggressively act this way toward others fall into one of 3 categories. They either feel threatened or they feel jealous  OR they hate themselves. 

Way too much ego from this particular ahole curmudgeon  to fall into one of the 1st 2 categories. 

 And yea ! The weather here is SENSATIONAL 😎 80 and sunny everyday no humidity, shouldn't see rain again until July ✨ 

 

[SLCbear]

2 hours ago, topwop1 said:

We don't really know what influence Warren has yet on these types of decisions and none of us can really be certain of anything at this point

Slim chance, but what if Bears go on a heater to end the season by ripping off 4-5 wins ...what happens then?

I know that wouldn't really change the minds of the majority of ppl who think that Flus should be fired but you don't think something like that would matter to Poles and the higher ups?

i just think it's premature to say anything at this point is a given 

after ownership, Warren is in charge

4-5 win heater would REALLY SUKK and throw a huge wrench into my plans 😛 I'm especially thankful for  Matt Eberflus this week to thwart any such nonsense 

 check out JT osullivan youtube review of JF this week, he highlights several plays that make zero sense from ANY scheme perspective. several of TJennings earlier vid reviews of JF also highlights some  scheme/execution ineptness.  Its bad man, fluss wau past redemption 

 

[Bigbear72]

6 hours ago, SLCbear said:

I believe that with proper coaching and another elite weapon, JF can easily reach Russ level 

AND Russell Wilson was traded at age 32  ! JF will be 25/26 in my proposed trade timeline. RW also had over a decade of wear and tear on his body at the time of his trade.  RW is also an Ahole and not liked by his teammates. 

If JF had Pete Carroll and the roster that RW went to those superbowls with, why couldn't he have the same kind of success ?? Rw is 5'11 215, JF 6'3 230, both have great deep balls, JF is far superior runner, RW at the moment is a better processor, but one can easily argue that RW is not a great processor after seeing him operate last season wo Carroll and  while surrounded with poor coaching scheme execution. 

 How is RW far superior to JF ?? JF much younger, much better human being, much more athletic 

If WE get proper coaching scheme execution around JF and he takes a developmental leap, we can start to expect something similar to a RW trade return for him. JF has never had anything CLOSE to great coaching and scheme ! I am holding out hope that proper coaching scheme execution can unlock remaining on field potential 

JFs floor is a starting level NFL qb which is worth a late FRP, hopefully real coaching scheme execution can take him to RW level or beyond. HOPEFULLY this happens, but if not JF ultimately falls somewhere between this floor and ceiling, netting us a premium pick or 2. 

 

 

Wow. So much to dissect here. First you mention drafting CW and then trading JF for a Russell Wilson haul. Sorry brother, but your logic is not even close to being based in the realm of reality. Seattle got that haul because of his previous accomplishments which include 19 Seahawk passing records, a Super Bowl title, 2 NFC Championships, 9 probowls, second team all pro, 11 NFC player of the week, just to name a few. You also mentioned JF's age. JF has been more injury prone than RW (at least up until that point). JF has not nearly accomplished enough to even be mentioned in the same breath of getting a haul like RW got for Seattle. Furthermore, if a team was willing to trade all that for JF, why not just attempt to trade up for one of the better prospects in this year's draft? 

[beardown3231]

40 minutes ago, Bigbear72 said:

Wow. So much to dissect here. First you mention drafting CW and then trading JF for a Russell Wilson haul. Sorry brother, but your logic is not even close to being based in the realm of reality. Seattle got that haul because of his previous accomplishments which include 19 Seahawk passing records, a Super Bowl title, 2 NFC Championships, 9 probowls, second team all pro, 11 NFC player of the week, just to name a few. You also mentioned JF's age. JF has been more injury prone than RW (at least up until that point). JF has not nearly accomplished enough to even be mentioned in the same breath of getting a haul like RW got for Seattle. Furthermore, if a team was willing to trade all that for JF, why not just attempt to trade up for one of the better prospects in this year's draft? 

Yeah but other than that the similarities are endless

[Sugashane]

7 hours ago, SLCbear said:

I believe that with proper coaching and another elite weapon, JF can easily reach Russ level 

AND Russell Wilson was traded at age 32  ! JF will be 25/26 in my proposed trade timeline. RW also had over a decade of wear and tear on his body at the time of his trade.  RW is also an Ahole and not liked by his teammates. 

If JF had Pete Carroll and the roster that RW went to those superbowls with, why couldn't he have the same kind of success ?? Rw is 5'11 215, JF 6'3 230, both have great deep balls, JF is far superior runner, RW at the moment is a better processor, but one can easily argue that RW is not a great processor after seeing him operate last season wo Carroll and  while surrounded with poor coaching scheme execution. 

 How is RW far superior to JF ?? JF much younger, much better human being, much more athletic 

If WE get proper coaching scheme execution around JF and he takes a developmental leap, we can start to expect something similar to a RW trade return for him. JF has never had anything CLOSE to great coaching and scheme ! I am holding out hope that proper coaching scheme execution can unlock remaining on field potential 

JFs floor is a starting level NFL qb which is worth a late FRP, hopefully real coaching scheme execution can take him to RW level or beyond. HOPEFULLY this happens, but if not JF ultimately falls somewhere between this floor and ceiling, netting us a premium pick or 2. 

He can't reach Wilson's level because he isn't a very good. Right now he hasn't been able to reach Andy Dalton's level as a starter, not even Cousins' level. Russ was a better processor as a rookie than Fields is now. Hackett was worse than Nagy or Getsy last year and this year he is outplaying Fields in spades, like usual. 

Since Fields took over the starting job he is 6-25 while his back ups are 6-7. His worst year was last year was better than Fields' best year. Wilson is unlikeable but the NFL is trying to win, not pay 8 figure deals per year to have buddies. How is Russ better? He's more accurate, MUCH more consistent, protects the ball better, gets rid of the ball better so he isn't constantly holding his offense back with unnecessary sacks, Russ uses his legs as a weapon while Fields uses his as a crutch for his poor passing, and for the talk of the wear and tear Wilson has, he is simply more durable. Fields can't stay healthy, Wilson has missed about as many games in his career than Fields has THIS year. And even if the argument is that Wilson isn't a great processor, the difference between his ability to process and Fields is greater than Wilson to Brady's. 

No one will give a 1st for Fields. I'd love to scam someone out of a premium pick but it just won't happen imo. 

[dll2000]

1 hour ago, Sugashane said:

 

No one will give a 1st for Fields. I'd love to scam someone out of a premium pick but it just won't happen imo. 

Right now no.   After Wash game or any really good game someone would have.   Based on potential.  I mentioned that at time.  

If he closes out year strong he could yet still garner a first.  But then people won't want to trade him.   They will want to keep him.     

Bears fans and NFL fans in general are often unrealistic about trades.  It's what makes doing mock GM games and fantasy football mostly unfun.   

You have to give value to get value (usually).  There are horrible examples of bad trades - see Rick Mirer trade and Claypool trade.  But the GMs were betting on upside still. 

Everyone wants to win a lopsided trade instead of making a realistic one that could benefit both sides - like the Sweat trade.  

 

 

[Sugashane]

2 minutes ago, dll2000 said:

Right now no.   After Wash game or any really good game someone would have.   Based on potential.  I mentioned that at time.  

If he closes out year strong he could yet still garner a first.  But then people won't want to trade him.   They will want to keep him.     

Bears fans and NFL fans in general are often unrealistic about trades.  It's what makes doing mock GM games and fantasy football mostly unfun.   

You have to give value to get value (usually).  There are horrible examples of bad trades - see Rick Mirer trade and Claypool trade.  But the GMs were betting on upside still. 

Everyone wants to win a lopsided trade instead of making a realistic one that could benefit both sides - like the Sweat trade.  

 

 

I was down to trade him when his value was highest. ATL made sense and I'd have been damn happy with a 3rd that climbs to a 2nd if they met some postseason metric. Would have been downright giddy at it. 

[dll2000]

Just now, Sugashane said:

I was down to trade him when his value was highest. ATL made sense and I'd have been damn happy with a 3rd that climbs to a 2nd if they met some postseason metric. Would have been downright giddy at it. 

This is probably right.  

My dad has been saying he isn't an NFL QB from draft, but his best position is RB.  Been annoying.  My dad isn't racist either.  Which has been accusation of anyone who has dared publicly utter such a thing.  Thankfully my dad is too old or too smart to post things on social media.  He objectively thinks that.  I hate to admit he may turn out to have been correct.  

I am optimist.  It seems a few small corrections in his game would take him from decent to really good. 

Patriots drafted like crap for over a decade and were still good because they didn't have to worry about drafting QB position.   It makes things a lot easier.  

People are singing Goff's praises this year.  But I maintain he is a very average QB.  Maybe even below average.  But if you put a loaded team around an avg. QB they can look very good.  It is deceiving.

I would much rather build around Fields if he can just get a little better in areas were he struggles - holding ball, timing, fumbles, taking big hits, not seeing obvious pre-snap pressure. 

But at some point I will have to accept he just isn't going to get it.  I am not quite there yet.  Maybe because I am a teacher at heart.   But I am fast approaching.   I am giving him more time to show me.   

[Sugashane]

5 minutes ago, dll2000 said:

This is probably right.  

My dad has been saying he isn't an NFL QB from draft, but his best position is RB.  Been annoying.  My dad isn't racist either.  Which has been accusation of anyone who has dared publicly utter such a thing.  Thankfully my dad is too old or too smart to post things on social media.  He objectively thinks that.  I hate to admit he may turn out to have been correct.  

I am optimist.  It seems a few small corrections in his game would take him from decent to really good. 

Patriots drafted like crap for over a decade and were still good because they didn't have to worry about drafting QB position.   It makes things a lot easier.  

People are singing Goff's praises this year.  But I maintain he is a very average QB.  Maybe even below average.  But if you put a loaded team around an avg. QB they can look very good.  It is deceiving.

I would much rather build around Fields if he can just get a little better in areas were he struggles - holding ball, timing, fumbles, taking big hits, not seeing obvious pre-snap pressure. 

But at some point I will have to accept he just isn't going to get it.  I am not quite there yet.  Maybe because I am a teacher at heart.   But I am fast approaching.   I am giving him more time to show me.   

I think he can be a QB, but I think he needed a guy like Shanahan, McVay, Reid, or a Harbaugh/Roman combo. People who know how to kind of baby the QB and allow them to grow in responsibilities rather than try to be a traditional QB. Johnson and Slowik are two guys who seem to fit the bill as well, though they have adapted the scheme to more traditional passers I have no doubt they could incorporate Fields' athleticism to make up for his shortcomings. 

Now do I feel Fields could ever be a top 10 QB? No, but I do feel like he can be a top 20 QB consistently. So I still say he can be a QB, but needs to swallow his pride and take a small deal to learn from a better offensive mind. Go back up Purdy, Mahomes, or Stroud and if they go down you can get your chance to showcase your talents. Tru got a little time under Daboll and got a shot, no reason to think Fields shouldn't be able to. 

Goff is average at best, but he is definitely better than I thought too. I thought he was a ruined trainwreck but Johnson has him maxed out for most games it seems. 

I'm simply taking a slightly pessimistic approach. I drafted Fields real-time, so I want him to be the franchise guy just from that too. But Bears boggled him just as they did Tru, even though Fields' ceiling are undoubtedly higher than Tru's. 

[dll2000]

4 minutes ago, Sugashane said:

I think he can be a QB, but I think he needed a guy like Shanahan, McVay, Reid, or a Harbaugh/Roman combo. People who know how to kind of baby the QB and allow them to grow in responsibilities rather than try to be a traditional QB. Johnson and Slowik are two guys who seem to fit the bill as well, though they have adapted the scheme to more traditional passers I have no doubt they could incorporate Fields' athleticism to make up for his shortcomings. 

 

Well the Nagy/Pace first year development plan was an utter disaster.   I was screaming that from roof tops from start.  We gave him back up offseason reps and then predictably threw him to wolves and got him beat to all hell.  

Then 2nd year Poles decided to tank which would be tough on any QB.   Getsy wanted to move ball and couldn't with talent at hand so he installed basically a HS offensive scheme and went away from what he wanted to do.  And Fields ran and ran and we put up some points.  But he didn't develop much in areas he needed to develop as a result.  

Now we are here.  His first real season to do something with some actual talent to do it along with a full offseason of starter reps.  But we want and demand 3rd year starter QB results and decision making. 

But he hasn't had 3 years of proper learning to be an NFL QB. 

It's tough.  

Shanahan or McVay would not have approached things that way.  They would have taught him from jump and if by end of 2nd year in their system he wasn't getting it they would be looking to move on to next man no matter the cost.

But we have a defensive HC with a hired OC.  We aren't going to get same philosophy or confidence.  They may be coaching for their jobs.  According to Bears fans they are.  They don't approach things with a long view.  

 

 

[AZBearsFan]

On 11/19/2023 at 9:21 PM, topwop1 said:

I'm just scared they're going to get rid of him and he's going to become a star else where and make the Bears organization pay dearly for giving up on him. I'm torn right now.

That’s worst case scenario as a fan, right?

If Justin plays the next 6 games like he played Sunday that decision will be much more complicated than fans think, even if we have the 1st pick. Fields was the best player on either offense on Sunday in a game that featured one of the best overall offenses in the NFL. He’s the reason we should have won the game. That’s the stuff you’re looking for! The appeal of Williams/Maye (or any high level QB prospect) is the high ceiling and perceived high floor. Fields still has that ceiling too. He’ll he just 25 next year. If he can show the next 6 weeks that he’s significantly raised the floor then the discussion with whatever new coach we probably have is completely different IMO. Ben Johnson just watched what Fields can do first hand, and I’m sure he is confident he can get more out of him than Getsy does. What we do at QB moving forward should 1000% be the choice of the next HC. Of course, if that new coach decides on his own that he wants to stick with Fields over the prospects Bears fans will neeeeeeeeeeeeever believe that was actually the case, but that’s a different discussion for a different day/thread. 

That Getsy and/or Flus completely took the game out of Fields’ hands in the 4Q (we ran 18 plays on offense in the 4Q - only 4 were called passes and Fields only attempted 1 pass (the dime to Scott that he stopped running for)) when he had cooked all damn day to that point was completely unconscionable. Forget conservatism - let your guy be the guy! Play to win the game, not survive it! I get trying to “preserve the win”, and that makes a ton of sense especially for a coach who needs to stack them to try to save his job, but you also just told us what you supposedly need to evaluate in your QB should you be able to actually save your job, and despite being presented with a golden opportunity to let him show you what he can do when it matters most you chose to not even give him the chance. Do they not realize the best chance they have to save their jobs is that Fields shows out the rest of the season??! Hell, they let Bagent pass to seal the game against CAR and he obviously isn’t the guy.