Game 11: Green Bay Packers (4-6) @ Detroit Lions (8-2)

[General Tso]

4 hours ago, HashtagFTW said:

Where veterans went in their draft is the most ridiculous comment you could have made in this conversation. 

If they're more talented than I'm giving them credit for, why aren't they putting it on the tape?

[Sllim Pickens]

48 minutes ago, Ripline said:

Could it be that they were simply outplayed and outcoached???

Turnovers were 3 to 0 and a failed fake punt on our own 20.  They scored 13 points off of those turnovers, not to mention we couldn't get in a rhythm early because of them.  We lost by 7 points.  I'd say they outplayed us in that Goff fumbled three times and outcoached us on one play when DC should have punted.  In general it was dumb mistakes by the players.  

[Sllim Pickens]

1 hour ago, Just Want A Title said:

I think what is perceived as negativity is more like confusion.  The defense has done a good job of limiting points.  However, I am genuinely confused by some recurring issues that will prevent the team from getting to the next level:

1.  Not establishing their offensive identity early--Ben Johnson described the offense as calculating but it looks like they might be over-thinking things.  Key players disappear for big parts for the game.  You see Sam LaPorta make some big catches early then he doesn't get a target for 1.5 quarters.  The same problem is developing with Jameson Williams.  He is making tough catches and but he get one early then disappears until the 4th quarter despite the fact that he is the one WR who can provide the truly explosive plays we need.

2.  Making things easy for opposing QBs--The total absence of QB hits and QB sacks that allows even average QBs to pick the secondary apart with easy completions.  The soft zone coverage that we are leaning on lets opposing QBs simply wait for something to open up because they have all the time in the world.

3.  Some core players on this team haven't taken the step forward that we expected--Alim McNeil hasn't become a dominant 3T despite the fact that the Lions coaches and opposing coaches praising him early in the season.  Josh Pascal hasn't been a factor in the pass-rush.  Both of those could be scheme-related.  Kerby Joseph has been inconsistent.  Hutch hasn't shown a bigger variety of pass-rush moves despite him being dominant in other areas.  Even Penei Sewell has had an up and down season.  This is still a very young team but the lack of progress by in players are clearly talented is concerning.

I am not trying to be negative but the Lions have had an almost ideal schedule and are as healthy as they have been all season.  The big picture factors have put them in a position to be successful but they just aren't capitalizing.

 

 

Your point on the defense is sort of backwards.  We have been good at not allowing tons of yards, but we are giving up points, mostly due to the situations we put the D in. 

1. We established the offense on the first drive.  Our next two drives ended in fumbles.  Its hard to establish your offense when you are fumbling so much.  Every drive can't be identical, as the opponents will have seen it and defend it better.  When we are fumbling and not getting first downs, our drives are short and its hard to spread the ball around while also trying to run.  Our second possession we had the play for 2 plays (3 with the penalty), and on the third possession we had it 3 plays.  We have 7 or 8 players that need touches.  You can't give it each of them on every drive, especially when Goff is under pressure. 

2. I would love to get more pressure.  We did push Love out of the pocket a lot, we just didn't get home and that created extended plays that are hard to cover.  Yes getting home will help.  That being said, after the first two possessions, we pretty much locked them down.  So again, I don't think this is as big of an issue as people keep saying it is.  

3. This feels a little short sited. Sewell has been the top graded RT in the NFL this year and was the second highest graded player per PFF last week with an 89.5. Sewell did not allow a sack but gave up two pressures, meanwhile Taylor Decker gave up 3 sacks to Gary.  Alim McNeil is the 5th highest graded DT this year per PFF.  I think he has taken the steps we had hoped, it just isn't turning into sack numbers.  The biggest problem yesterday was Decker, Glasgow, Sorsdal, and Awosika.  They gave up pressures and hits and aside from Decker, I don't really count on them to be anchors anyways. 

Again, we are 8-3.  That is tied for the second best record in the NFL.  That means a lot of guys have taken steps forward and we are playing better. Yes we have flaws.  Every team has flaws.  We have played well and had a rough couple of games turnover wise.  Thats it. 

[HashtagFTW]

On 11/27/2023 at 1:50 PM, General Tso said:

If they're more talented than I'm giving them credit for, why aren't they putting it on the tape?

I've been trying to say it for weeks... our DC is garbage. 

[Just Want A Title]

On 11/27/2023 at 2:50 PM, General Tso said:

If they're more talented than I'm giving them credit for, why aren't they putting it on the tape?

Lets compare where they are now to where they started in 2021:

1.  Cam Sutton replaced Jeff Okudah in 2023 

2.  Alex Anzalone added in 2021 and retained

3.  3rd round pick Alim McNeil added in 2021

4.  4th round pick Derrick Barnes added in 2021

5.  1st round pick Aidan Hutchinson added in 2022

6.  2d round Pick Josh Pascal added in 2022

7.  3rd round pick Kerby Joseph added in 2022

8.  1st round pick Jack Campbell added in 2023

9.  2d round pick Brian Branch added in 2023

They may not have the talent to be an "elite defense" but they have added enough pieces to become a consistently good defense against the run and the pass.  The non-existent pass-rush outside of Aidan Hutchinson is mind-boggling.  In the last half of the 2022 season, this defense was very good.  We kept players like John Cominsky and Isaiah Buggs who performed well last year and added some solid talent.  Right now, Aaron Glenn is trying to fit the players to a scheme instead of building a scheme to suit the players.  He just doesn't seem to be able to get the most out of the talent that he has on the roster.

Even the handling of Brodic Martin has been really odd.  He played sparingly in the first two pre-season games and didn't play in the third pre-season game at all.  For most teams, that indicates the player is usually going to have a significant regular season role.  He has been active for one game.  If he was that much of a project, why didn't the play him more in the pre-season?  

The bottom line for me, especially with respect to the D-Line, the performance of the players has either flat-lined or regressed.  If it were one or two players, it could just be one of those things that happens.  However, it is happening with almost every player on the D-Line.  Kerby Joseph hasn't taken a step forward.  This isn't a player problem.  This is a coaching and scheme problem.

Edited December 2, 2023 by Just Want A Title

[General Tso]

7 hours ago, HashtagFTW said:

I've been trying to say it for weeks... our DC is garbage. 

I think it's both.

[General Tso]

1 hour ago, Just Want A Title said:

Lets compare where they are now to where they started in 2021:

1.  Cam Sutton replaced Jeff Okudah in 2023 

2.  Alex Anzalone added in 2021 and retained

3.  3rd round pick Alim McNeil added in 2021

4.  4th round pick Derrick Barnes added in 2021

5.  1st round pick Aidan Hutchinson added in 2022

6.  2d round Pick Josh Pascal added in 2022

7.  3rd round pick Kerby Joseph added in 2022

8.  1st round pick Jack Campbell added in 2023

9.  2d round pick Brian Branch added in 2023

They may not have the talent to be an "elite defense" but they have added enough pieces to become a consistently good defense against the run and the pass.  The non-existent pass-rush outside of Aidan Hutchinson is mind-boggling.  In the last half of the 2022 season, this defense was very good.  We kept players like John Cominsky and Isaiah Buggs who performed well last year and added some solid talent.  Right now, Aaron Glenn is trying to fit the players to a scheme instead of building a scheme to suit the players.  He just doesn't seem to be able to get the most out of the talent that he has on the roster.

Even the handling of Brodic Martin has been really odd.  He played sparingly in the first two pre-season games and didn't play in the third pre-season game at all.  For most teams, that indicates the player is usually going to have a significant regular season role.  He has been active for one game.  If he was that much of a project, why didn't the play him more in the pre-season?  

The bottom line for me, especially with respect to the D-Line, the performance of the players has either flat-lined or regressed.  If it were one or two players, it could just be one of those things that happens.  However, it is happening with almost every player on the D-Line is under-performing.  Kerby Joseph hasn't taken a step forward.  This isn't a player problem.  This is a coaching and scheme problem.

Nope I was told where they went in the draft doesn't matter in this argument.

[Just Want A Title]

1 hour ago, General Tso said:

Nope I was told where they went in the draft doesn't matter in this argument.

I will say this:  Other than Levi Onwzurike none of the players that have been added have been considered a reach by being drafted to early.  Even Levi Onwuzurike was projected as a 2d-round pick at the time.  You could make the argument that where they were drafted doesn't matter but the fact is that a significant amount of draft and free agency resources have been spent to improve the defense.  That improvement to a middle-of-the-league defense, especially against the pass, hasn't shown up.

Last year, they were one one of the worst in the league even after playing much better in the second half of the season.  Hutch, Kerby Joseph, Josh Pascal and Malcom Rodriguez were rookies.  Alim McNeill was in his second year.  Jeff Okudah and Amani Oruwariye were "key players" in the secondary.  The experience level and talent on last year's defense was significantly lower than the defense we have put in the field in 2023.  Despite the the injuries to Ceedy Duce, James Houston and Emmanuel Mosley we still have more talent than last year.  When I watch the Lions defense, the scheme looks exactly like 2021 when the defense was largely bereft of talent.  The results are starting to resemble 2021.

Edited December 2, 2023 by Just Want A Title

[General Tso]

9 minutes ago, Just Want A Title said:

I will say this:  Other than Levi Onwzurike none of the players that have been added have been considered a reach by being drafted to early.  Even Levi Onwuzurike was projected as a 2d-round pick at the time.  You could make the argument that where they were drafted doesn't matter but the fact is that a significant amount of draft and free agency resources have been spent to improve the defense.  That improvement to a middle-of-the-league defense, especially against the pass, hasn't shown up.

Last year, they were one one of the worst in the league even after playing much better in the second half of the season.  Hutch, Kerby Joseph, Josh Pascal and Malcom Rodriguez were rookies.  Alim McNeill was in his second year.  Jeff Okudah and Amani Oruwariye were "key players" in the secondary.  The experience level and talent on last year's defense was significantly lower than the defense we have put in the field in 2023.  Despite the the injuries to Ceedy Duce, James Houston and Emmanuel Mosley we still have more talent than last year.  When I watch the Lions defense, the scheme looks exactly like 2021 when the defense was largely bereft of talent.  The results are starting to resemble 2021.

A lot of resources have been spent but at the same time more needs to be spent. The injuries have been unfortunate but also missing on Levi kind of hurts since he was a 2nd rd pick in Holmes first year. So now we don't have consistent DT play.

[Louis Friend]

40 minutes ago, Just Want A Title said:

I will say this:  Other than Levi Onwzurike none of the players that have been added have been considered a reach by being drafted to early.  Even Levi Onwuzurike was projected as a 2d-round pick at the time.  You could make the argument that where they were drafted doesn't matter but the fact is that a significant amount of draft and free agency resources have been spent to improve the defense.  That improvement to a middle-of-the-league defense, especially against the pass, hasn't shown up.

Last year, they were one one of the worst in the league even after playing much better in the second half of the season.  Hutch, Kerby Joseph, Josh Pascal and Malcom Rodriguez were rookies.  Alim McNeill was in his second year.  Jeff Okudah and Amani Oruwariye were "key players" in the secondary.  The experience level and talent on last year's defense was significantly lower than the defense we have put in the field in 2023.  Despite the the injuries to Ceedy Duce, James Houston and Emmanuel Mosley we still have more talent than last year.  When I watch the Lions defense, the scheme looks exactly like 2021 when the defense was largely bereft of talent.  The results are starting to resemble 2021.

Josh Paschal was a very obvious reach in the second round. Most draft boards had him as a 4th/5th rd talent and that was despite his injury.
 

Brodric Martin was a reach in the 3rd round. 
 

Doesn’t matter now because they are drafted by the Lions and we hope they succeed, but let’s not pretend the Lions front office took them well before where they were projected based on talent. 

[Sllim Pickens]

People freaking out about a bad game score wise.  The D played solid against GB after the first two drives. 
 

last year we were dead last in the league in points per game against and we were 25th in yards per game allowed. 
 

This year we are 10th in yards per game allowed and 23rd in points per game allowed. 
 

The D is not responsible for a fumble recovery for a TD. The D is not responsible for a fumble and failed fake punt at our own 20.  The D isn’t responsible for Goff turning it over 6 times in the last two games.  

[Just Want A Title]

1 hour ago, Louis Friend said:

Josh Paschal was a very obvious reach in the second round. Most draft boards had him as a 4th/5th rd talent and that was despite his injury.
 

Brodric Martin was a reach in the 3rd round. 
 

Doesn’t matter now because they are drafted by the Lions and we hope they succeed, but let’s not pretend the Lions front office took them well before where they were projected based on talent. 

Brodric Martin was not a reach.  There were a number of teams drafting behind the Lions that were considering him including.  The Chiefs were one of those teams.  The press gurus may not have been aware of him but NFL scouts certainly took notice after his Shrine Game Performance.

As for Josh Pascal:

"Paschal is projected to come off the board sometime on day two, as early as the middle of the second round. Ravens’ General Manager, Eric DeCosta, has three picks on the second day of the draft including, two in the third."

https://www.baltimorebeatdown.com/2022/4/26/23015292/ravens-2022-draft-prospect-profile-edge-josh-paschal-odafe-oweh-calais-campbell-pernell-mcphee

He was projected to go exactly where he was drafted by the Lions.