Game 11: Green Bay Packers (4-6) @ Detroit Lions (8-2)

[detfan782004]

1 hour ago, General Tso said:

He doesn't elevate his talent level to play better, like Flores does for Minnesota. He's as good as what his talent is. Whether or not that's fireable is up to you.

I think he should be gone now. He's junk 

[Louis Friend]

1 hour ago, General Tso said:

He doesn't elevate his talent level to play better, like Flores does for Minnesota. He's as good as what his talent is. Whether or not that's fireable is up to you.

If they aren’t going to upgrade the talent on the defensive side of the ball, they need a DC who WILL get more out of the guys we have. The fact that the Lions have not addressed the defense this season and Campbell continues to call them “my guys”, something has to adjust somewhere. 

[detfan782004]

16 minutes ago, Louis Friend said:

If they aren’t going to upgrade the talent on the defensive side of the ball, they need a DC who WILL get more out of the guys we have. The fact that the Lions have not addressed the defense this season and Campbell continues to call them “my guys”, something has to adjust somewhere. 

Too many HCs have done on to lose their job going down with their guys 

[Just Want A Title]

25 minutes ago, Louis Friend said:

If they aren’t going to upgrade the talent on the defensive side of the ball, they need a DC who WILL get more out of the guys we have. The fact that the Lions have not addressed the defense this season and Campbell continues to call them “my guys”, something has to adjust somewhere. 

From the outside looking in, Aaron Glenn isn't doing a good job of putting players in the right roles.  For example, at one point early in the game, Kerby Joseph was basically in "in-the-box" safety with Tracy Walker covering the deeper part of the field.  Tracy Walker is really good at run fits and blitzing but Kerby Joseph is a better coverage safety (despite his recent gaffs).  He essentially put both players in a role where they were playing to their weaknesses instead of their strengths.  

The other issue for me is Defensive Line Coach John Scott Jr.  The D-Line has taken a step backwards with him as the D-Line coach.  Outside of Hutch, there isn't a lot of success happening with respect to winning their one-on-one battles.  Every single D-Lineman, including Hutch, stays engaged with their blocker for too long giving opposing QBs too much time with a clean pocket.  They are being coached to simply occupy blockers.  News flash:  That isn't going to get it done in the regular season or the playoffs.  This coaching hire that hasn't worked out well at all.  

I hate to say this but I think Aaron Glenn has lost the defensive locker room.  Their play, outside of Hutch and Alex Anzalone, isn't great and shows no signs of getting better.  If you watch the sideline interactions, it looks a lot like the players are starting to tune him out.  It is getting harder to blame the players for that because they know what they are being asked to do isn't good football.  

Dan Campbell is saying the right things publicly as a Head Coach.  Throwing people under the bus in the press isn't how good teams solve problems.  However, he needs to get real about the performance of his defense. He added John Fox to his staff in the off-season.  I think it is about time he started tapping into some of his extensive defensive knowledge.

[Just Want A Title]

You can't let the offense off the hook either.  This is the second game in a row where Ben Johnson didn't establish their identity early.  For whatever reason, the offense looks better when they start with Jahmyr Gibbs and then go to to David Montgomery (Lightning to thunder). 

One other thing:  Jameson Williams made two very good catches but was not utilized for long swathes of the game.  They asked him to run better routes and he is running better routes.  He is making some tough catches and holding on to the ball.  Ben Johnson and Jared Goff need to make a better effort to feed Jameson Williams.  He has grown enough to warrant that kind of approach.

[General Tso]

21 hours ago, Just Want A Title said:

From the outside looking in, Aaron Glenn isn't doing a good job of putting players in the right roles.  For example, at one point early in the game, Kerby Joseph was basically in "in-the-box" safety with Tracy Walker covering the deeper part of the field.  Tracy Walker is really good at run fits and blitzing but Kerby Joseph is a better coverage safety (despite his recent gaffs).  He essentially put both players in a role where they were playing to their weaknesses instead of their strengths.  

The defense does not have a designated strong and free safety, they are asked to do both.

Maybe that's fireable, but yeah that's how it is.

[Just Want A Title]

2 minutes ago, General Tso said:

The defense does not have a designated strong and free safety, they are asked to do both.

Maybe that's fireable, but yeah that's how it is.

Kerby Joseph, when he is dialed-in, is a very good deep safety.  He doesn't look comfortable blitzing or playing closer to the line of scrimmage in run-support.  Tracy Walker is very good at both of those things but he isn't as strong in coverage.  They are not inter-changeable players.  When Kerby Joseph went down, Ifeatu Melifonwu played pretty well.  It could be argued that he played as well and at times, better than Kerby Joseph is playing now.  Why isn't he getting on the field?

[General Tso]

1 minute ago, Just Want A Title said:

Kerby Joseph, when he is dialed-in, is a very good deep safety.  He doesn't look comfortable blitzing or playing closer to the line of scrimmage in run-support.  Tracy Walker is very good at both of those things but he isn't as strong in coverage.  They are not inter-changeable players.  When Kerby Joseph went down, Ifeatu Melifonwu played pretty well.  It could be argued that he played as well and at times, better than Kerby Joseph is playing now.  Why isn't he getting on the field?

The coaches see them practice and we don't, that's the straight forward answer.

I suspect Kerby might sit for CJGJ when he comes back.

[HashtagFTW]

18 minutes ago, General Tso said:

The defense does not have a designated strong and free safety, they are asked to do both.

Maybe that's fireable, but yeah that's how it is.

Well, if the defense would play better with designated safeties, don't you think that's within the power of the defensive coordinator to make that switch? 
 

Regardless, when something isn't working, you make an adjustment. And AG hasn't made any adjustments. He continues to think our front 4 will generate pressure without any blitzing. He continues to let Jerry Jacobs get burned by the other teams best receivers. He's continuing to not spy quarterbacks that can run. 
 

It's been a total system failure since the Baltimore game and he's not making changes. 
 

And I also think our defense is more talented than you're giving them credit for. 

[Just Want A Title]

29 minutes ago, HashtagFTW said:

Well, if the defense would play better with designated safeties, don't you think that's within the power of the defensive coordinator to make that switch? 
 

Regardless, when something isn't working, you make an adjustment. And AG hasn't made any adjustments. He continues to think our front 4 will generate pressure without any blitzing. He continues to let Jerry Jacobs get burned by the other teams best receivers. He's continuing to not spy quarterbacks that can run. 
 

It's been a total system failure since the Baltimore game and he's not making changes. 
 

And I also think our defense is more talented than you're giving them credit for. 

When Aaron Glenn started as our DC in 2021, the talent level on defense was pretty low.  They basically coached the defense to contain opposing offenses because they couldn't do much more than that.  In 2022, despite the fact that he was coaching a lot of rookies who were getting significant playing time in the second half of the year last year the defense was playing much better.  We added talent to the defense this year (Brian Branch, Cam Sutton and Jack Campbell) and retained our quality depth players.  The defense has the talent to significantly better than they were last year.  When I watch the Lions defense, it looks like they are taking it back to 2021 with respect to scheme as well as play-calling.  The  results are predictably similar.

[General Tso]

37 minutes ago, HashtagFTW said:

Well, if the defense would play better with designated safeties, don't you think that's within the power of the defensive coordinator to make that switch? 
 

Regardless, when something isn't working, you make an adjustment. And AG hasn't made any adjustments. He continues to think our front 4 will generate pressure without any blitzing. He continues to let Jerry Jacobs get burned by the other teams best receivers. He's continuing to not spy quarterbacks that can run. 
 

It's been a total system failure since the Baltimore game and he's not making changes. 
 

And I also think our defense is more talented than you're giving them credit for. 

No, they're really not.

Our DEs outside of Hutch are JAGs. Benito Jones and Isaiah Buggs went late round/undrafted for a reason. We had to bench Buggs for Dallas castoff Quinton Bohanna. Jerry Jacobs is undrafted. Our fastest DB runs a 4.5 40.

[HashtagFTW]

23 hours ago, General Tso said:

No, they're really not.

Our DEs outside of Hutch are JAGs. Benito Jones and Isaiah Buggs went late round/undrafted for a reason. We had to bench Buggs for Dallas castoff Quinton Bohanna. Jerry Jacobs is undrafted. Our fastest DB runs a 4.5 40.

Where veterans went in their draft is the most ridiculous comment you could have made in this conversation. 

[Sllim Pickens]

There is a lot of negativity on one or two games in this thread and some stuff I haven't seen pointed out. 

Yes the Lions are 25th in points per game allowed.  In the three losses we have given up 37, 36, and 29 with one of our wins giving up 38 as well.  We also have games where we gave up 6, 6, 14, and 20 to the Chiefs. We are up and down on D which I don't like but that leads me to my next point. 

We are 9th in the league in yards against.  Given the disparity between yards and points, that tells me that our offense is not putting these guys in a good spot.  We had the bad fake punt against GB leaving them at our 20.  We also had a fumble returned for a TD and a fumble that gave them the ball at the 18 yard line. And as much as I love Dan Campbell's aggressive approach, it does come with risks.  Albeit some of that risk is because we couldn't stop them early and had to get aggressive but more so because Goff was turning the ball over a ton.  

We are tied for 3rd in the league in defensive penalties and 6th in penalty yards meaning more of our penalties are PI's netting more than 5 yards.  But that shows me we are disciplined and well coached.   

Aaron Glenn made adjustments in the last two games.  They scored 20 in the first quarter, 7 from a fumble returned for a TD.  After those first two possessions in which GB had sustained longer drives against us, we shut them down.  We turned them over on downs twice and allowed 6 points in the second half on the drive that they started at our 23 yard line.  I do not blame this game, or the Bears game being close on the D at all.  I will say we need to come out stronger, as both have got the quick jump on us, but we have made adjustments and locked teams down.  

The biggest issue the last two weeks is turnovers. Mainly from Goff between fumbles and INTs.  Goff lost 3 fumbles in this game and had 3 INTs in the last game.  Add in one Craig Reynolds fumble on a kickoff and that makes it incredibly hard to win games.  In that same span we have caused 1 turnover, which is probably the biggest issue on D.  

The last two games have been frustrating.  We win when Goff plays well.  We struggle when he plays bad and we are competitive when he plays ok.  He has been bad to start the last couple of weeks.  Getting him out of the funk is the first key to success going forward.  Given he has snapped out of it and played well in second halves is promising but we need to cut down on the turnovers.  Thats it.  No over reactions needed.  We are still 8-3 and in second place in the NFC.  Even teams like Philly have games they give up 500+ yards and 35+ points.  They have given up 31 to Washington twice this year.  But they don't turn the ball over and are able to win those games.  

[Just Want A Title]

2 hours ago, Sllim Pickens said:

There is a lot of negativity on one or two games in this thread and some stuff I haven't seen pointed out. 

Yes the Lions are 25th in points per game allowed.  In the three losses we have given up 37, 36, and 29 with one of our wins giving up 38 as well.  We also have games where we gave up 6, 6, 14, and 20 to the Chiefs. We are up and down on D which I don't like but that leads me to my next point. 

We are 9th in the league in yards against.  Given the disparity between yards and points, that tells me that our offense is not putting these guys in a good spot.  We had the bad fake punt against GB leaving them at our 20.  We also had a fumble returned for a TD and a fumble that gave them the ball at the 18 yard line. And as much as I love Dan Campbell's aggressive approach, it does come with risks.  Albeit some of that risk is because we couldn't stop them early and had to get aggressive but more so because Goff was turning the ball over a ton.  

We are tied for 3rd in the league in defensive penalties and 6th in penalty yards meaning more of our penalties are PI's netting more than 5 yards.  But that shows me we are disciplined and well coached.   

Aaron Glenn made adjustments in the last two games.  They scored 20 in the first quarter, 7 from a fumble returned for a TD.  After those first two possessions in which GB had sustained longer drives against us, we shut them down.  We turned them over on downs twice and allowed 6 points in the second half on the drive that they started at our 23 yard line.  I do not blame this game, or the Bears game being close on the D at all.  I will say we need to come out stronger, as both have got the quick jump on us, but we have made adjustments and locked teams down.  

The biggest issue the last two weeks is turnovers. Mainly from Goff between fumbles and INTs.  Goff lost 3 fumbles in this game and had 3 INTs in the last game.  Add in one Craig Reynolds fumble on a kickoff and that makes it incredibly hard to win games.  In that same span we have caused 1 turnover, which is probably the biggest issue on D.  

The last two games have been frustrating.  We win when Goff plays well.  We struggle when he plays bad and we are competitive when he plays ok.  He has been bad to start the last couple of weeks.  Getting him out of the funk is the first key to success going forward.  Given he has snapped out of it and played well in second halves is promising but we need to cut down on the turnovers.  Thats it.  No over reactions needed.  We are still 8-3 and in second place in the NFC.  Even teams like Philly have games they give up 500+ yards and 35+ points.  They have given up 31 to Washington twice this year.  But they don't turn the ball over and are able to win those games.  

I think what is perceived as negativity is more like confusion.  The defense has done a good job of limiting points.  However, I am genuinely confused by some recurring issues that will prevent the team from getting to the next level:

1.  Not establishing their offensive identity early--Ben Johnson described the offense as calculating but it looks like they might be over-thinking things.  Key players disappear for big parts for the game.  You see Sam LaPorta make some big catches early then he doesn't get a target for 1.5 quarters.  The same problem is developing with Jameson Williams.  He is making tough catches and but he get one early then disappears until the 4th quarter despite the fact that he is the one WR who can provide the truly explosive plays we need.

2.  Making things easy for opposing QBs--The total absence of QB hits and QB sacks that allows even average QBs to pick the secondary apart with easy completions.  The soft zone coverage that we are leaning on lets opposing QBs simply wait for something to open up because they have all the time in the world.

3.  Some core players on this team haven't taken the step forward that we expected--Alim McNeil hasn't become a dominant 3T despite the fact that the Lions coaches and opposing coaches praising him early in the season.  Josh Pascal hasn't been a factor in the pass-rush.  Both of those could be scheme-related.  Kerby Joseph has been inconsistent.  Hutch hasn't shown a bigger variety of pass-rush moves despite him being dominant in other areas.  Even Penei Sewell has had an up and down season.  This is still a very young team but the lack of progress by in players are clearly talented is concerning.

I am not trying to be negative but the Lions have had an almost ideal schedule and are as healthy as they have been all season.  The big picture factors have put them in a position to be successful but they just aren't capitalizing.

 

 

[Ripline]

Could it be that they were simply outplayed and outcoached???