Week 12: VIKINGS (6-5) vs. Bears (3-8)

[Duluther]

1 minute ago, JDBrocks said:

And you’re right. The play calling had 0 to do with turnovers.

 

7 minutes ago, Snake Plissken said:

LOL. 10 points. 

We all watched the game tonight. We all are hardcore enough fans to understand the game. No need to get caught up in semantics or (worse) already look for scapegoats.

I think we can all agree that this was our current team's floor. We have a bye and get JJ back. We have an opportunity to get hot when it's right, given that we're still in the thick of the wild card.

[Snake Plissken]

Just now, JDBrocks said:

Man, if you don’t think 3 interceptions that hit receivers in the hands prevented them from scoring g points I’m not sure what to tell you. The offense didn’t execute. There were plays to be made and the offensive players stunk. 

If you don’t think KOCs inability to adjust the play calling to Dobbs’ skill set wasn’t a major factor in the team’s ability to score then I guess you just want dismiss the performance on those 3 plays.  

[JDBrocks]

1 minute ago, Snake Plissken said:

If you don’t think KOCs inability to adjust the play calling to Dobbs’ skill set wasn’t a major factor in the team’s ability to score then I guess you just want dismiss the performance on those 3 plays.  

It’s almost like football is more nuanced than “coach bad lul”

[Robb_K]

2 minutes ago, CriminalMind said:

Dobbs was consistently late (leading to throws being behind & slow to WR) For the last two game.  That’s a Dobbs problem. Not a KOC problem. Does this staff have the stones to go back to Hall, after deactivating him in the two losses by Dobbs. I am not sure, but it’s likely the better choice to give Hall the start and see what you have. After all he did look ‘solid’ in his first start. Give him two weeks to prepare. He what you have in him, because you know now what you actually have in Dobbs.

My thoughts, exactly.  The Vikings will have big decisions to make for next season.  No sense in paying $10 million next season for a journeyman back-up QB if they could be grooming Hall or Dobbs, at several million $ less, and potentially have better upsides (and mobility) than an old veteran.  That extra 5-7 $ cap room might help them to sign a solid veteran DL LB, or CB.  They'll still need to draft A QB with their #1 choice, so it will important to fill at least on (but maybe 2) defensive positions with UFAs.

[SemperFeist]

One thing lost in all that has gone wrong this year is how bad Ryan Wright has been. 

[Snake Plissken]

Just now, JDBrocks said:

It’s almost like football is more nuanced than “coach bad lul”

Which is why I referred to things like coaching, adjustments, game planning, and skill sets.  Beats an excuse that the team can score because of 3 turnovers.  

[JDBrocks]

Easy to forget about your punter when your team turns the ball over 4 times a game.

[JDBrocks]

Just now, Snake Plissken said:

Which is why I referred to things like coaching, adjustments, game planning, and skill sets.  Beats an excuse that the team can score because of 3 turnovers.  

Ok, but say that the first time? I wanted them to move Dobbs a bit, and even said as much earlier in this thread. But given the game plan, the players still have to execute the play calls. These are the same concepts they’ve been running all season.

When you throw 4 interceptions, that takes away possessions and scoring opportunities. When receivers aren’t hanging on to catchable passes, that’s not a game plan, coaching, or play calling issue.

 

[SemperFeist]

Run, run, and a short pass when you can be aggressive and dagger your opponent is a coaching and playcalling issue. They couldn’t even muster a believable attempt to play to win.

Talk about the turnovers all day long, but at the end of the day the team had the lead and a chance to end the game. And O’Connell pissed down his leg. Again.

Edited November 28, 2023 by SemperFeist

[JDBrocks]

I agree that late game situational football has been an issue, especially with being conservative. However, they never would have been in that situation if the players could stop giving the ball to the other team. It got better during the win streak, but now they’ve given away two more with ball security issues. That has to be addressed before anything else. Hang on to the ball, win football games.

[vikingsrule]

12 minutes ago, SemperFeist said:

Run, run, and a short pass when you can be aggressive and dagger your opponent is a coaching and playcalling issue. They couldn’t even muster a believable attempt to play to win.

Talk about the turnovers all day long, but at the end of the day the team had the lead and a chance to end the game. And O’Connell pissed down his leg. Again.

With how Dobbs was playing and how careless he was with the ball I can’t really fault O’Connell here. This loss and especially how it unfolded really puts a damper on the rest of the season. So what we win the next two, maybe, then what? Just seems we’re bound to stumble against Detroit and maybe GB but even if we manage to get the 7th seed it’s hard to have confidence in Dobbs doing anything in the playoffs.

How many losses until the team goes back to Hall? Do the Vikes make the switch now during the bye? Do the Vikes shut Jefferson down? Doesn’t he have to come off IR now?

 

Edited November 28, 2023 by vikingsrule

[Snake Plissken]

Just now, JDBrocks said:

Ok, but say that the first time? I wanted them to move Dobbs a bit, and even said as much earlier in this thread. But given the game plan, the players still have to execute the play calls. These are the same concepts they’ve been running all season.

When you throw 4 interceptions, that takes away possessions and scoring opportunities. When receivers aren’t hanging on to catchable passes, that’s not a game plan, coaching, or play calling issue.

 

My criticism of KOC (the Offensive Coordinator) is/was independent of player execution (which was obviously a major factor).  Dobbs was bad, dropped passes, inconsistent line play, turnovers all put the team in a hole.  But KOC didn’t put Dobbs in position to be successful most of the game.  When things go wrong and  players are struggling a coach has the opportunity to make a difference.  The defense kept the team in the game.  KOC had the opportunity to overcome those mistakes in a winnable game.  What I wanted to see was KOC make the calls and adjustments and use Dobbs skills to win a game that was within reach for 4 quarters. 
To the Bears credit they had two late turnovers and gave up a late touchdown the lead, but overcame.  
There is a lot to like about KOC, but tonight was not his night as OC. 

[Dolmonite26]

40 minutes ago, Snake Plissken said:

My criticism of KOC (the Offensive Coordinator) is/was independent of player execution (which was obviously a major factor).  Dobbs was bad, dropped passes, inconsistent line play, turnovers all put the team in a hole.  But KOC didn’t put Dobbs in position to be successful most of the game.  When things go wrong and  players are struggling a coach has the opportunity to make a difference.  The defense kept the team in the game.  KOC had the opportunity to overcome those mistakes in a winnable game.  What I wanted to see was KOC make the calls and adjustments and use Dobbs skills to win a game that was within reach for 4 quarters. 
To the Bears credit they had two late turnovers and gave up a late touchdown the lead, but overcame.  
There is a lot to like about KOC, but tonight was not his night as OC. 

I would argue pretty strongly that the TD drive demonstrated some clear adjustments made to play calling to help Dobbs and the offense.

It's very difficult for a coach to call a good game when you can't trust your QB to execute basics of the position. Dobbs is absolutely reckless with the football and put this team in bad spot after bad spot because of it.

Add to that really poor pass protection for stretches of the game and critical drops by receivers and I find it pretty difficult to put all of this on KO, even tho he obviously has earned some of the blame, the offenses last drive being a good example.

Then again... Idk, when your coach tell you to just to beat a guy and the line fails to do that...I mean is it really that crazy to think that the line couldn't just run block well enough to get chunk run plays on the final drive? This season has been rough on that front but like.... You are allowed to just win your matchup

Edited November 28, 2023 by Dolmonite26

[CriminalMind]

KOC showed today that he is not a flexible play caller / schemer. Everyone knows the best way to get the most out of Dobbs is to roll him out of pocket let him either throw or run or put in design runs etc (ATL/NO game by default due to Dobbs lack of KOC scheme).  KOC called a game for Kirk Cousins tonight, while ignoring the best aspects of Dobbs, and emphasizing Dobbs worse aspects (pure pocket passing). 
 
forget about wanting a mobile QB with KOC, KOC looks like he’d ask Lamar Jackson to stay behind his OL in the pocket and just throw passes  

 

 

[Snake Plissken]

5 minutes ago, CriminalMind said:

KOC showed today that he is not a flexible play caller / schemer. Everyone knows the best way to get the most out of Dobbs is to roll him out of pocket let him either throw or run or put in design runs etc (ATL/NO game by default due to Dobbs lack of KOC scheme).  KOC called a game for Kirk Cousins tonight, while ignoring the best aspects of Dobbs, and emphasizing Dobbs worse aspects (pure pocket passing). 
 
forget about wanting a mobile QB with KOC, KOC looks like he’d ask Lamar Jackson to stay behind his OL in the pocket and just throw passes  

 

 

I was thinking the same with the Cousins analogy.  I wondered if KOC used Dobb’s mobility more in the first games because he needed to with a limited playbook.  But now with a few more weeks of practice he wants to run a more pocket based offense.