Draft Discussion 2.0

[MWil23]

16 minutes ago, LETSGOBROWNIES said:

Couldn’t you do the same thing with a trade though?  Move down a few picks, grab another talented bro and get a few picks in 2019 also?

We can have our cake and eat it too.

I'm all for trading the 4th pick, loading up, and still getting an elite talent. I have no interest in moving WAY down again while passing on top end talent/prospects. There's a huge difference in the 4th pick and the 20th and a future 1st, most likely landing 20th or lower. I'd rather have 1 blue chipper than 2 guys in the late 1st, but that's just me.

Now, if we traded from 4th to 6th-8th and got a future 1st then I'm all for it.

[LETSGOBROWNIES]

1 minute ago, MWil23 said:

I'm all for trading the 4th pick, loading up, and still getting an elite talent. I have no interest in moving WAY down again while passing on top end talent/prospects. There's a huge difference in the 4th pick and the 20th and a future 1st, most likely landing 20th or lower. I'd rather have 1 blue chipper than 2 guys in the late 1st, but that's just me.

Now, if we traded from 4th to 6th-8th and got a future 1st then I'm all for it.

I’d probably want to stay top 12-15, but IF Buffalo wanted to give up both of their firsts this year and one next year I’d be game for that too.

[roger murdock]

1 hour ago, candyman93 said:

For the Houston pick it’s either Minkah or Barkley for me. If we draft a QB at 1, give them help and overhaul the offense.

What about Chubb and having a terror DL? 

I think thats what I want. Right now we have a few units that lose us games (QBs, offensive weapons, specials teams, DBs), and few units that tread water (OL, DL, LB). We have no units that can take over and win us games. 

A DL with Garrett/Shelton/Obi/Chubb and Ogbah/Nassib/Brantley etc rotating is a unit that wins 3 games a year single handedly. We haven't had a stacked core of players like that since the year we had Winslow/Edwards/JJ/Jamal destroying people as playmakers. 

 

Only this hyptoethical unit is way younger, healthier, and level headed.

[LETSGOBROWNIES]

14 minutes ago, roger murdock said:

What about Chubb and having a terror DL? 

I think thats what I want. Right now we have a few units that lose us games (QBs, offensive weapons, specials teams, DBs), and few units that tread water (OL, DL, LB). We have no units that can take over and win us games. 

A DL with Garrett/Shelton/Obi/Chubb and Ogbah/Nassib/Brantley etc rotating is a unit that wins 3 games a year single handedly. We haven't had a stacked core of players like that since the year we had Winslow/Edwards/JJ/Jamal destroying people as playmakers. 

 

Only this hyptoethical unit is way younger, healthier, and level headed.

I think this also addresses the question of what is our identity?

If we have a DL that you can count on destroying offenses, it gives us an identify, a clear plan as to how to win games.  I don't see that identity now.

Unless you call having a 21 year old raw, rookie qb beat other teams with his arm an identity, then maybe.

[MWil23]

59 minutes ago, LETSGOBROWNIES said:

I’d probably want to stay top 12-15, but IF Buffalo wanted to give up both of their firsts this year and one next year I’d be game for that too.

They'd better pony up 3 total 1st rounders IMO. I'm not interested in trading pick #4 overall for #21 and #24. We will trade arguably the best position player in the draft for 2 guys who are considered #3 or #4 at their own respective positional grouping in the draft. No thanks...unless they threw in a proven player in return. I'd take Tyrod Taylor off of their hands for a year or two while Darnold develops.

[LETSGOBROWNIES]

1 minute ago, MWil23 said:

They'd better pony up 3 total 1st rounders IMO. I'm not interested in trading pick #4 overall for #21 and #24. We will trade arguably the best position player in the draft for 2 guys who are considered #3 or #4 at their own respective positional grouping in the draft. No thanks...unless they threw in a proven player in return. I'd take Tyrod Taylor off of their hands for a year or two while Darnold develops.

That's what I meant, both this year AND their first next year.

[MWil23]

My dream scenario is still:

*Sign Cousins...find a way to get this done

*Trade pick #1 for a KING'S RANSOM

Keep pick #4 and draft BPA, whether that's Chubb, Fitzpatrick, whoever.

[Kathouse Sticks]

1 minute ago, MWil23 said:

My dream scenario is still:

*Sign Cousins...find a way to get this done

*Trade pick #1 for a KING'S RANSOM

Keep pick #4 and draft BPA, whether that's Chubb, Fitzpatrick, whoever.

I wouldn't mind Cousins.  But, how do you get it done?  We definitely have the cash.  But what could possibly convince Kirk to come here?

Kind of reminds me of Alex Mack.  We could have offered him part ownership and he was still going to be gone.

[dawgdish]

2 hours ago, candyman93 said:

For the Houston pick it’s either Minkah or Barkley for me. 

Yes please - this is exactly where I'm at.

[Mastercheddaar]

1 hour ago, LETSGOBROWNIES said:

I’d probably want to stay top 12-15, but IF Buffalo wanted to give up both of their firsts this year and one next year I’d be game for that too.

I can't agree here. We have gone that route before. We are in the position to take 2 top 5 talents. We take them and don't look back. Darnold with Fitzpatrick, Chubbs, Barkley is the way this team gets back into same quicker. I'm done making the rich richer in this league. 

That is all

Mastercheddaar

[LETSGOBROWNIES]

10 minutes ago, Mastercheddaar said:

I can't agree here. We have gone that route before. We are in the position to take 2 top 5 talents. We take them and don't look back. Darnold with Fitzpatrick, Chubbs, Barkley is the way this team gets back into same quicker. I'm done making the rich richer in this league. 

That is all

Mastercheddaar

You saying we need some more of those "can't miss" guys at the top, like Warren, Brown, Gilbert, TRich, Mingo, Winslow, Braylon, etc?

As you can see, we've gone that route too. 

[Mind Character]

5 hours ago, LETSGOBROWNIES said:

I think this also addresses the question of what is our identity?

If we have a DL that you can count on destroying offenses, it gives us an identify, a clear plan as to how to win games.  I don't see that identity now.

Unless you call having a 21 year old raw, rookie qb beat other teams with his arm an identity, then maybe.

This.

The goal is to establish a force in some unit on the field.

We all know Tom Brady, Aaron Rodgers are a force where the other team gets nervous, makes mistakes b/c they (coaches included) believe those QBs to be like the boogey man, causing a loss in the strength of their collective will b/c they feel their up against some unstoppable force.

Before Peyton manning became a mere mortal at the end of his career he was like that.

We're not going to get that identity from a drafted QB.

Myles and Chubb could start to build a decisive impact winning force.

Saquon Barkley, Duke, and someone else can create a force on offense along w/ the QB and upgraded WR position.

Which is why although I love love Minkah Fitzpatrick, if we don't commit to add 3 impact CBs and overhaul the safeties as a unit, I don't think we can build an identity around him.

That's why I'm all in on Chubb at 4 and even though or even though I like Minkah more I'd lean to Barkley at 4 instead for identity reasons.

And that's ultimately why we can't really trade down from 4 b/c the only teams willing to make the trade down worth it fpr us (that is, QB needy teams) would absolutely take us out of position to get Chubb or Barkley and I'm not as confident in the impact potential of the 8-15 range players like Calvin Ridley WR, Roquan Smith LB, Hayden Hurst TE, Denzel Ward CB...

Unfortunately, it just doesn't seem like the trade back would be worth it this year due to this year's talent pool not being as talented.

I mean to think we got David Njoku at the end of the first round or that players like Budda Baker, Dalvin Cook, and Alvin Kamara went in the 2nd and 3rd rounds...man...last year's talent pool was so deep.

[Mind Character]

13 minutes ago, LETSGOBROWNIES said:

You saying we need some more of those "can't miss" guys at the top, like Warren, Brown, Gilbert, TRich, Mingo, Winslow, Braylon, etc?

As you can see, we've gone that route too. 

Yeah but we can do that with all the picks including number 1 as there is a 50% hit rate on top 10 pick QBs.

So, why not trade number 1 and number 4 to get more picks as that logic always makes sense?

At some point you have to believe in a 1 player over a chance at 2.

Now's the time...we have other draft capital to cover us.

Thing is most of those players were thought to be horrible picks by scouts.

I know personally that most people thought Justin Gilbert was a late 1st or 2nd round pick.

Mingo had no substantive college production and was all projection

Winslow had a good career but the injury derailed everything....Braylon had one amazing season but was casualty to dysfunctional organization.

Courtney Brown was actually good but injuries did him in.

Warren actually had a good career of 37 sacks and was actually pretty productive in Cleveland.

[LETSGOBROWNIES]

4 minutes ago, Mind Character said:

Yeah but we can do that with all the picks including number 1 as there is a 50% hit rate on top 10 pick QBs.

So, why not trade number 1 and number 4 to get more picks as that logic always makes sense?

I'll take my chances with the top qb, mostly because it's not at position where quantity can apply.

4 minutes ago, Mind Character said:

At some point you have to believe in a 1 player over a chance at 2.

Now's the time...we have other draft capital to cover us.

I'm all about a qb at 1, I just want this absurd amount of draft capital every year.

4 minutes ago, Mind Character said:

Thing is most of those players were thought to be horrible picks by scouts.

I know personally that most people thought Justin Gilbert was a late 1st or 2nd round pick.

Mingo had no substantive college production and was all projection

I agree, but this has happened plenty of times before and will happen again.  Players get overhyped every year.

4 minutes ago, Mind Character said:

Winslow had a good career but the injury derailed everything....Braylon had one amazing season but was casualty to dysfunctional organization.

Courtney Brown was actually good but injuries did him in.

Agree on both players, but that's part of the equation.  It's a rough sport ans putting all (or most/a lot) of your eggs in one basket is always a risky proposition. Moneyball reduces that risk.

4 minutes ago, Mind Character said:

Warren actually had a good career of 37 sacks and was actually pretty productive in Cleveland.

Solid career, no doubt, but not when you look at the guys we passed on.  I don't think anyone would say he justified his draft spot.

[Bonanza23]

IF we get a franchise qb #1 I don’t want to trade down this year. I want a top player be it Minkah(who I’d prefer) Barkley (if you deem him elite) Chubb whomever. My biggest reason to trade down is if you can’t get a qb and I always like having the draft capital to move up if possible. I think this draft is very top heavy with the elite talent but drops off to good talent really quick. Now if you want another first next year I’d be ok trading one of our seconds to get one. Especially if you think next years draft can potentially be better. 

Btw can someone tell me why Chubb is better than Ogbah?  Not trying to be an idiot I just haven’t watched him much.